All in a day's discrimination
Yeah, well, who is even bothered to be surprised any more?
"In another case, the court sentenced an Indian woman to a month in prison and 150 lashes for adultery. Her Indian lover was also given a month in prison and 90 lashes. The two will be deported after serving their terms."
Nothing ever changes. It probably never will.
"In another case, the court sentenced an Indian woman to a month in prison and 150 lashes for adultery. Her Indian lover was also given a month in prison and 90 lashes. The two will be deported after serving their terms."
Nothing ever changes. It probably never will.
127 Comments:
You missed the story (from last Thursday) about the stepfather caught committing incest with his three stepdaughters. Their sentence will be harsher than his. They were turned in (according to the story) by the one stepsister who wasn't abused, and both the stepfather and the stepdaughters were arrested and will be punished.
Did you read today's article on the Sharia law, according to which a man and woman can be punished and deported if found alone in a tinted car/house even if they are NOT indulging in any illegal and immoral activity !!!
So guys, watch out !!! You just might get arrested, sentenced to 50 lashes and deported for walking your girlfriend back home.
Backwarder and backwarder.
Maybe Backward in your standards..and I dont know whats your standards..
Oh pls hot lemon n honey - I know you love your country but do you want to attempt to justify this?
We need to justify our laws and way of life? What kind of absurdity is this? It may sound backward to you all, but that is the way we are. We have absolutely no shame in it :)
I dont get it what are you guys trying to press for here? That we adopt your laws somehow? So you will try journalistic arm twisting followed by political intervention and then finally military invasion?
Dear people, you all have made your democracy and secularism a new RELIGION. And you are the most intolerant of all people as you view others who dont follow your system with disdain and mock at them. I have long advocated to my circle of friends how 21st century secularism/democracy is a RELIGION by itself. The West trashed their religious laws and set it up with laws of their own, which they think is superior to all other systems. You are now actively witnessing how democracy is being spread by the "sword". And the suited-booted "mullahs" of democracy will not have any of any other religion BUT their own (viz democracy).
Like the leader of Hamas said in his speech after their victory in Palestine: We Muslims will not be convinced by your ideology. You tried forcing us to change our stands to yours, but over 50 years of using economic and military force, you have actually increased our love for our religion. Now that you keep championing democracy using it as a weapon, Allah (SWT) has caused you defeat with your own weapon as each and every Muslim country that is practicing it is only seeing "islamists" come to power!
The frustration is very understandable and it is about time you all woke up and smelled the coffee.
how about sticking to the point and help me understand why 90 lashes for the man and 150 for the woman.
I think Islam is an interesting and vast religion, living in an Islamic country, we must know more about it. With the knowledge al-republican holds, It may be easier to digest the otherwise indigestible judicial system.go on...
Well then why is the UAE claiming it is adopting "democracy" and "freedom of press/speech"?
How about you reading about this case and finding out that the woman accrued more lashes because of her indulging in more crimes? The 150 lashes that she is getting is an accumulation of independant lashes for different offences. And then you talk about equality?
I wonder how you would explain Western courts sentencing a 50 year old man to 200 years in prison? So, what, they keep his dead corpse in jail, too? The figure is obtained by the summation of the individual crimes he/she commits. Anyways, try to find out about the case at hand.
I don't know how to post a link here, but here is a very interesting article by one of Pakistan's best political analysts. I hope I can paste this link in its entirety. Otherwise I will appreciate if someone can help me by telling me how I can post a link a la Dubai@Random in the very first post on this thread.
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm
Thanks!
I knewwww it was all the west's fault!!!
samuraisam-
My guess is: (1) they are confused; (2) they are afraid (yes, we Muslims are a bunch of scardy cats) of saying otherwise. You might know of America's express intent of wanting to see this part of the World democratized. Like I said, people have no option these days when it comes to democracy. It's like the Bushism of the 21st century: you are either with us or against us.
Not a very democratic statement, if you ask me!
democracy # (is not equal to) America.
Right now, democracy or no democracy, monarchy - fine ... that isnt even the issue here.
btw - adultry doesnt only mean - having a relationship with someone inspite of being married to someone else. Correct me if i'm wrong ( I purely mean, in this part of the world, I donnot know about the rest). In this article specifically - she proposed marraige to him. I dont think she was married already.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Just remember that your nokia mobile phone, your cup of starbucks and your mercedes benz don't agree with this sort of stuff.
Neither do Penicillin or fancy internet websites (like this one, owned by google) hosted in the US, or your fancy Microsoft/Apple/Linux/Dell/HP/Compaq/Alienware/whatever computer.
Practice what you preach, if you're going to blame the west and have an outlook that completely disagrees with everything related to the west, I suggest you get off the internet for it is American.
samuraisam:
That was a WEAK comeback! We are against Western Hegemony, not against technology! What you say is absolutely ludicrous and it is a kin to saying, "If you hate the lack of freedom of press and human rights in the GCC countries, STOP USING THEIR OIL!"
Please try to understand what the matter at hand is! Enough said!
ah! messed it up there, but anyways. adultry isnt always in the case of one person being married.
Wow… Listen to the hypocorism in here.
I’m not even going to comment on the topic of this Blog entry itself (because as Secret said, are you even surprised?), but why are you all raving for a boycott of everything American because here, in the UAE the locals don’t disagree with their laws?
This is their country. They know the rules. They know if they choose to break them what the possible outcome is. They are not screaming for a change, so why are all these guests here doing it?
Yes, this is an American owned site, but isn’t this part of a UAE community of bloggers? Why in the world has it been created if only those who agree with American ideal of democracy should be here?
But since only American’s and those who hold ‘American’ opinions should have the right to use the Internet, lets say only Arabs and those who hold Arabic opinions should use the international mathematic rules; after all it was an Arab who invented them.
How come you’re all pushing for a further racial/cultural divide then there already is? Does this make any sense to you, at all? Let the UAE stop dealing with American anything, let the West live without the Arabian Oil. Ask the Western army’s to remove their bases from Arabian lands, and send all the Arab American’s home. Kick all the foreigners out of the UAE and back to their own countries.
Let us all divide and become as far away as possible from those who oppose our own opinions. Once it’s done, let us each build a great wall, as China once did (because we know what a success that turned out to be); and mind our own business, be self sufficient, and live our own lives, without concern for another.
Sam and confused smokey...why are you mixing up two different things..and by the way "Yes! I'm SO tired of hearing people going on about the evils of the West while never acknowledging all the good things that we have because of them." thats exactly what you and Sam are doing..so this makes many tired people. What an immature come back.
And Sam why are you returning to the UAE when you don't seem to like anything but the food.
I think your arguements are childish and immature deviating from what Al-republican is saying.
The Sharia is the law and I dont know the details of the story..but I know if a married person commits adultary then the penalty is harsher..usually stoning..and as Al Republican said..it might be the sum of other convictions.
I have lots to say about the laws of the west and the way they handle crimes and criminals..but Its not my concern..its theirs.
But unfortunatly my line of works gets me invovled in the consequences of such laws.
and Al Republican why dont you start a blog..
Smokey Mirror-
No offence taken at all :)
Like I said, the woman got more lashes for her indulgence in other crimes.
I tend to agree with you how punishments are handed out here. Rapists go scotch-free, relatively(especially if they are local men). By Islamic law, a rapists is more likely to get a death sentence. His offense is on 2 accounts: (1) Illegal sexual intercourse; (2) Violating a woman's honor.
Whereas offence 1 awards 70 lashes, it is offence number 2 that awards the death penalty (and in the worst possible way, too, like beheading). In the Qur'an, the crime of rape is refered to as "waging war against Allah and His Rasul (Messenger), and spreading evil in the earth"!
So I agree with you all when I see rapists get off the hook as easily as they do.
@tainted female
Everyone knows that the locals are treated differently in the courts - an expat who commits a crime will get a harsher sentence than a local who commits the exact same crime - anyone who's examined the court system can tell you that. And even then, some of the connected locals don't even spend time in jail!
That and the fact that most of the high profile locals who could make noise about the "current system" are either complacent about their lives or know subconciously that they wouldn't be able to change anything even if they wanted to, or both.
Anyway, back to the article:
I wonder if the lashes will be distributed over a few days/weeks or all at once. I can imagine how scary the two must, languishing in some cell awaiting their sentence for something that really didn't harm anyone else - one of those morality crimes *rolls eyes*.
Everyone knows that the courts discriminate on so many levels - religion and nationality but as for sex, I can think of several reasons - in the M.E. it definately is a man's world, and I don't think that there are any female judges in the court system in the UAE. I wonder if they are even allowed to be judges in the first place. Not trying to sound sexist, but perhaps some female compassion in the court system would do it some good.
Hot Lemon & Honey:
Because I don't think I am cut out for that. It takes a lot of time and skills to do what SD does. I'd rather be a contributor. It's better this way!
Am I missing something? where does it say that the woman indulged in more crimes?
"In another case, the court sentenced an Indian woman to a month in prison and 150 lashes for adultery. Her Indian lover was also given a month in prison and 90 lashes. The two will be deported after serving their terms."
That is ALL of the information that is available.
How exactly can she be charged with adultery and he not? Unless she withheld that information, which the article does not specify, I’m left to assume that he knew, in which case, they are both equally guilty.
The definition of adultery according to some random website is; "Voluntary sexual relations between an individual who is married and someone who is not the individual's spouse.", so if it is 'between' them, shouldn't they both have the same punishment? Remember, it takes two to tango, and sometimes three.
Furthermore, this case is another one which is difficult to judge because there is no information available, we can theorize all we like, but there isn't enough information to form a judgment.
I have to wonder, cases like these, with a severe lack of information have been in papers in the UAE for quite a few years, is it because they don't have the information? or because they aren't allowed to publish it?
Hot Lemon& Honey I did not bring the 'blame west' or ‘defend west’ argument into this, my retort was in reaction to someone else who mentioned the west.
As far as I can see this has nothing to do with the west, without looking at any other country as an example, depending on what information I have to invent, I believe that the punishment for this is unfair.
It is the local law, and if you screw up, it is your problem; same as these retard drug dealers from Australia that go to Bali and somehow achieve empathy from every man and his dog despite committing a crime in another country and being punished as such.
But promoting freedom of speech/press does enable commenting about this sort of thing.
@al-republican
You know, I think the government lets off local rapists with a slap on the wrist because their obtrusive virility can only be good for population growth in the long run. The victims, if they're not local, get harsher sentences because they could "contaminate" the "pure" UAE blood.
I wanted to state a few facts about Islamic Law that maybe locals over here can take a lesson from. The Prophet (may peace and blessings upon him) said about the crime of stealing and it's punishment, "By Allah, if Fatima the daughter of Muhammad had to steal, I would cut off her hand".
Also, when the Muslims invaded Syria which was Roman territory, a Roman official asked some Christian Arabs to spy on the Muslims and report to him what they were like. The spies reported what they saw as, "Monks by night, knights by day. If the son of their king had to steal they would cut off his hand."
Unfortunately we have abandoned our own ways.
"Unfortunately we have abandoned our own ways."
And for the better too! Cutting off hands? Please - how about some proper parenting.
We all make mistakes somewhere in our life. Punishment is sometimes inevitable but I think what most people want is equal punishment regardless of sex, religion, nationality, etc. that respect human rights, which you don't find in the UAE.
Shaper85-
There is a reason why you can go to bed in this part of the World without locking your door :)
Yes, the punishments are harsh, but they are HARDLY ever carried out. The cutting off of hands only comes when the offender keeps repeating his crime despite previous punishments and warnings.
@hannibal
I was going to mention it.. but this blog really is about Dubai only.
However, I think it is well known that Shariah law punishes apostasy with death. Always. And even if the person changes his mind, there is still punishment for even "thinking" of converting.
@al-republican
The reason why you can do that is because it is a police state. And the only crimes that are reported are the ones that have had public exposure. Its been shown that a criminal will commit a crime despite the penalties, if he/she is desperate enough. And even then, most criminals don't think about the punishment because they think they can get away with it.
Regardless of whether it is "HARDLY" carried out, it is still barbaric and a completely primative way to punish someone and is overkill for a crime that can have many reasons for being.
@hannibal
In oppressed societies, the only way people can make their voices heard is through mayhem, deaths, violence, boycotts, bounty on journalists heads, etc. and other unreasonable ways of communicating their displeasure.
Everyone knows that the locals are treated differently in the courts - an expat who commits a crime will get a harsher sentence than a local who commits the exact same crime - anyone who's examined the court system can tell you that. And even then, some of the connected locals don't even spend time in jail!
No, everybody doesn’t know that. I have spent 11 years here. Three of them I battled against a LOCAL in RAK who accused me of theft among other things. Another three I spent in Dubai divorcing my LOCAL husband. I won both times, and both appeals. And I am not a local. Both men attempted to open more fraudulent cases against me after their failure and swear up and down I was being favored because I’m a westerner.
I’m sick hearing about this discrimination that may have existed in the past, but certainly doesn’t anymore.
And what you’re talking about ‘connected locals’, I happen to know as a matter of fact a few Shks themselves, went to jail for shooting habara – which is considered a local and international crime against endangered species. Yes, there may be some cases where favorism ‘seems’ to be the key, or ‘wasta’ helped pull a few strings but what you’re implying is a norm is simply incorrect; a connected expat can get away with just as much in this country as anyone else. And have you not noticed the number of men whose photo’s appear in the paper for harassing women are of local’s? I’m sorry, as a woman I can honestly say I get bothered, followed, and harassed by all sorts in this country; and certainly not just the locals.
And even if what you’re saying is correct; I suppose it’s a big enough reason for an international boycott of everyone and everything that doesn’t simultaneously line itself up with your nationalities achievements & opinions, huh? After all that was the point you’ve responded to, wasn’t it?
Sharper
You've made so many 'everybody knows' comments in your argument, makes me ponder two things...
1) Who is your ‘everybody’? And how many people does your 'everybody' consist of? It’s certainly not the same as my ‘everybody’.
&
2) Are your sharing your opinion based on your experience and personal research or just following the opinion of 'everybody' based on what you’ve heard or think you’ve seen in the media?
"I’m sick hearing about this discrimination that may have existed in the past, but certainly doesn’t anymore."
Wow. Just wow. Get your head out of the sand! Ignorance may be bliss but you only embarass yourself if you try to express it publicly ;)
Your obviously limited experience in the UAE does not automatically translate to what really happens in the UAE - just because you haven't "seen" or experienced discrimination does not mean it doesn't happen. The UAE discriminates on so many levels, not just the court system. Although I don't disagree with you that connected expats can get away with stuff too.
"I’m sorry, as a woman I can honestly say I get bothered, followed, and harassed by all sorts in this country; and certainly not just the locals."
Well if the "harassment" goes a step further and ends up in the police station/courts, you better hope that they don't blame you for enticing these people.
As for boycotting things that "doesn’t simultaneously line itself up with your nationalities achievements & opinions", I just have to say that boycotting, for the most part does not affect the intended recipient(s) and often many innocent people are harmed by such foolish behaviour.
Lets take the example of the Danish boycott... the government and newspaper, who were the intended targets were not affected, but private Danish companies operating in the UAE, employing people of different nationalities were hurt. And what is the point of doing that? To feel that you've made a "difference" in the whole cartoon scandal? You haven't.
I just have to say that boycotting, for the most part does not affect the intended recipient(s) and often many innocent people are harmed by such foolish behaviour.
I believe that’s the point I initially made?! So you agree? But you want to debate about favorism (something I don’t recall mentioning)?
I surrender. You win. My limited UAE experience and obviously oblivious opinion based on pure fantasy is not enough to challenge the likes of an obviously educated, open-minded, clearly factual person, who makes only solid, fact-based statements with resources we can all check, like yourself.
@tainted
1)Let me rephrase it then: "Everyone who isn't in denial"
2) My comments and opinions are based on 20+ years of living in the UAE. I'd say the best time for me in the UAE was during the late 80's. I felt that expats, who were pioneers to this new land years earlier, were finally beginning to enjoy the fruits of their labour. We were all there to build a better life and you would rarely, if ever, find things like non-payment of wages, etc. I became disgusted with the way the UAE was heading and have since left this artifical bubble.
\Excuse my reminiscence :')
@tainted
"I surrender. You win."
Well I'm glad you took that well. :-)
Oh, and of course you were correct in your assumption that because I believe the courts aren't necessarily discriminatory when it comes to the law, that means I don’t believe racism, sexism, or any other ‘ism’ exists in the UAE at all.
Wow! When you can pin-point a person and decipher their whole view on life and all their opinions based on one shared line of thought as accurately as you have, you’ve truly conquered a stepping stone in one of life’s many great challenges! I admire your abilities.
But with mine, the world is so much pretty from behind my rose-tinted glasses.
ok, so why is the guy getting 90 lashes and the female getting 150 ?
Sharper85-
Yes, we have! Only after the economic boycott did the Danish PM and the newspaper issue apologies :)
And what the heck do you want from us? Strip and run around naked? When we burn effigies and take out processions, you have a problem with it and how "unreasonable" we are. And when we do something as civilized as an economic boycott, you STILL have a problem with it? Hehe! You people sometimes dont cease to amuse!
But, I dont blame you. You have been used to bossing others around and now cannot stand the growing independance that Muslim countries and it's people are showing.
Stop complaining for a change. You know damn well that your mothers, daughters, sisters and wives can walk around GCC countries without fear of getting raped. Despite all the arrogance and insistence to follow your laws, women in the West continue to be raped left, right and center. And if your people are not MAN enough to defend the honor of their women then it doesnt mean you expect us to wear bangles and become effeminates like them!
@tainted
"Wow! When you can pin-point a person and decipher their whole view on life and all their opinions based on one shared line of thought as accurately as you have, you’ve truly conquered a stepping stone in one of life’s many great challenges! I admire your abilities.
But with mine, the world is so much pretty from behind my rose-tinted glasses. "
You are too kind! But don't debase yourself like that; we all go through that phase while in the UAE. I know I did.
Harsha,
If you read the posts, my initial one and even my initial response to Sharper, you'll see that I didn't comment on that at all; until I realized he wasn't worth debating with and choose to use complete and utter sarcasm filled with his oblivious assumptions, instead.
I don't have the answer to your question. I haven't attempted to give one. I have defended the idea that "LOCAL'S" are given better treatment according to the judgments; because I DO know that’s complete bull.
Harsha-
Because the woman had butt-slapped a cow in the barn, which is a major sin!
"You know damn well that your mothers, daughters, sisters and wives can walk around GCC countries without fear of getting raped."
...
...
are you actually serious about making that statement?
is there any difference between balushi n al-republican?
Harsha,
What do you expect him to say?? He's answered you more than once, giving any possible evidence that's available. There is no more that can possibly be done.
If you don't want to believe that the term 'adultery' is not used the same as the term 'lover' in the UAE papers, then it's your choice.
Can you prove he's wrong in stating that she commited a more sins?
obviously tainted u know better- no doubt at that..and ur excluded from the question cuz u had cleard it;o)hey heres a game - figure out who deviated the topic in the first place.
@Al-republican
The Danish newspaper, which was completely independant from the governement or the companies that were boycotted, only issued an apology to stem the violence, not because they really meant it, and I'm pretty sure they didn't.
Harsha-
There is a factor, which distinguishes Balushi from me. If you multiply that factor with any person you will get Balushi.
That "factor", my dear, is YOU!
Stupidity is best answered with more stupidity.
Did you bloody notice that the news item in question was hardly 3 sentences? With such little information you want us to tell you what is going on?
By the way, did you find out about the "wonder boy" Mazen? Once you finish with that assignment, we can start with this one :)
tainted he cant prove the otherwise anyway. cant u see that all that hes ever said has no relevence to anything discussed whatsoever - check out his latest comment - its an award winner
"And what the heck do you want from us? Strip and run around naked? "????
"But, I dont blame you. You have been used to bossing others around and now cannot stand the growing independance that Muslim countries and it's people are showing."?????
"You know damn well that your mothers, daughters, sisters and wives can walk around GCC countries without fear of getting raped."????
sorry to say - I've had several attempts been made on myself and also survived a horrendous attempt and assault at the age of 7.
"And if your people are not MAN enough to defend the honor of their women then it doesnt mean you expect us to wear bangles and become effeminates like them!"????
It's a fine art Harsha, to be able to comprehend that there is only available what's available and no more.
No matter how many times you ask, when the facts have all been told and there's nothing left to say, you have no choice but to either make an opinion or decide not to at all, based on the common sense that shows you there's not enough information.
No point in debating beyond that really.
Shaper85-
Thank you for admitting that much! Looks like the riots and processions were not so "unreasonable" after all, eh? :)
seriously i wasnt really asking the question again, I was only bringing light to the fact that the topic has been taken away far and beyond from what it started - the very first comment by al-republican itself wasnt relevant.
He settles everything with 'religion', 'big bad west'. did anyone here say anything against the upcoming arab world. the expats here are proud of it - wanna encourage it and take advantage of it themselves - thats exactly why they r here! NOT BECAUSE THEY HATE IT
Harsha-
Will you stop crying? Just because I put you in a tight corner last time doesn't mean you become my sworn enemy. You can at least spare the others. If you want to stalk me, I will be glad to give you my e-mail address :)
Yes, I went "off topic" in my very first posting. But, in case you missed it (which you obviously have), I have discussed the issue of the lashes at length over here. Or do you read and respond selectively?
I had a reason for going off-topic; the seven-odd comments before my first posting are CLEARLY engaging in "bash Dubai and all things Islamic"! Weird how your bias doesn't see that crystal clear fact!
@Al-republican
Sure... if you think "reasonable" means the deaths of several people, harming of completely innocent entitites, among other things ALL for a insincere apology.
al republican - it did not even occur to me that u thought u put me in a tight corner or soemthing - i dint even realise it was u who came up with those wonder boy arguments - we'll i've cleared myself in that thread itself.
I just went through some previous posts on this blog and realised all your comments on all the posts involve giving religious lectures and pointless arguments irrespective of interest to anybody even randomly.
And also, I did settle for the fact that its pointless arguing over this article due to lack of information after Sam pointed it out and while repeating the question.. I should have borrowed Sams sarcasm detector.
eh? out of stock.. shucks..
Harsha-
So, I guess you keep repeating your dry jokes/sarcasm thinking that if you repeat it enough, maybe somebody will laugh and make you feel better?
Just like the insincere apology that Shaper85 talks about, let me give you some insincere laughter "Hahaha, you are SO funny, Harsha".
sarcasm # funny
u forgot ' u CRACK me up'
@hannibal
I guess organized religion is an entity in itself, where followers are integrated in that religion and individuality, when it comes to god anyway, is frowned upon.
In a Christian society I can imagine a person converting to Islam would be ostracized and be made a virtual pariah for his choice. However, Islamic society seems to be a bit more fanatical in that elements in it kills, or trys to kill, those who abandon the "true" god.
And then there are people who try to avoid this scenario altogether by suggesting that if all these religions say that there is only one true god, then they must all be worshipping the same one! Unlikely.
Harsha,
You've just highlighted the very reason you'll never be content living here.
I just went through some previous posts on this blog and realised all your comments on all the posts involve giving religious lectures and pointless arguments irrespective of interest to anybody even randomly.
You're in a country dear, where religion isn't a pointless argument. It's supposed to be the law, the culture and the life, making it the deciding factor in any discussion or issue. I assure you, no matter how much you detest the same and no matter how loud you voice that opinion, it will not change for you; and you'll be fighting a losing battle; until you accept the fact the UAE is an Islamic country, and Islam is a way of life; not just a belief we can get close to when we choose and stray from when we it seems convenient for the sake of others.
And now, this conversation is getting worn. I'm out. Have fun.
again, my comment was keeping in mind topics discussed on this blog. Who am I to stop anyone from voicing their opinions/ religious virtues otherwise?
Hannibal,
I’m sorry I didn’t mean to neglect your questions. The conversation about what’s happening in Afghanistan and the convert is happening in another forum around here, I’ll try and find it and let you know; but it’s been going on for a few days now, thus the reason I didn’t comment on it here to begin with.
As for KSA many Muslim’s argue that the laws there are not exactly as Islamic as they should be, and the Prophet (PBUH) was known to tolerate all religions that believe in one God; and he is meant to be an example for all Muslims. Using this as evidence of Islam would be like claiming the women in Saudi can’t drive because of Islam as well. There are however, many other places of worship for many other religions in other Islamic countries including the UAE.
And as for the lashings, Islamically it’s supposed to be equal. But why, in this case, who knows? There aren’t enough facts (as usual) in the papers. Al-republican has tried to give possible answers here, but since we don’t have enough information there is no way anyone can answer that with certainty. I will admit, it does seem to be a trend in the UAE for the woman to get punished more severely, but I can’t make any claims on why as, well, you read the information that’s given on each case. In any crime-related case here, there’s always holes in the stories.
for all u know GN reported in a misleading way, cant say after the Sharla story
Why must they be punished? I don't get it. They're not hurting anybody by doing whatever they were behind closed doors.
al republican.
You are again illogical in explaining things through islam. In fact this issue of lashes was not posted to blame islam but about the discrimination of laws locally.
You well know that laws are discriminative here - that indians will be punished more and deported more - have you heard of a local getting lashes lately?? Or a westerner??
Understand the point without getting defensive and bringing out islam all the time - this is an issue about discrimination locally.
And by the way - your simplistic islamic laws are really no solution.
If adultery is such a CRIME what about the prostitutes roaming around? And what about the drink fest happening tonight at the World Cup horse race? Not a very shariah compliant city is it?
browser-
You are much more of an ass than I expected! I told you in another thread that I wasn't willing to expose you for what you are, but you did it right here! I quote you:
"Btw, Agha al-publican, I can see you are still spewing those funny Islamic Fatwas ..lol"
AGHA?? You little Persian bugger! You had to give it away THAT easily, didn't you? :)
Cheers!
DubaiBuy-
You seem to have missed my posting where I agreed with everybody that laws are a little biased when it comes to punishing the whites or locals.
However, you seem to be missing another point altogether - these rulings of lashings were given in Ras Al-Khaimah not our SinCity of Dubai :)
As for the "simplistic islamic laws", yeah they aren't that hard to understand if you take some time and study them.
hannibal-
Your questions have nothing to do with this thread. If such a thread comes up, I will be more than happy to answer your questions.
I don't have time for random Islam-bashers to come up with what they find thorny about Islam. As it is Harsha think I go "off topic" all the time! Somehow she won't ever comment on Islam-bashers (dare I say, like yourself) going off-topic. I am not paid to answer all your questions either. Your tone of writing also suggests that you are not looking for answers, but for a useless diatribe.
I hope that whets your appetite just a bit.
I feel sorry for all you guys who have to suffer our terrible laws here in the UAE...I wonder if you thought of moving back to your country..cause after all us locals support such laws.
And wish they were reinforced better..ie the rape crime, the men involved should be stoned to death..
Listen...stop saying "expats are convicted more" etc etc...you only get to hear about it more..cause you are expats..Just go to the courts and attend some of the hearings..and see how many locals are there...
Several people here just want to argue..just to argue..
And please stop telling us how to run our country
"Your questions have nothing to do with this thread.
Kettle calling the pot black?
If I recall correctly, I infact, QUOTE;
"Yeah, well, who is even bothered to be surprised any more?
Nothing ever changes. It probably never will."
was basically the premise of SD's initial posting.
I don't see ANY mention of religion, war, politics, facts, kebabs, gorlillas, or pirates or even ninjas.
The discussion in this thread was completely dynamic, based upon the original posting, it has been twisted early on, into a west vs east argument, and a democracy vs whatever argument.
So far approximately 8090 words have been written, supposedly commenting in relation to an original posting of 18 words and a quote.
Threadjack anyone?
hannibal-
By your own admission, you said that I give an Islamic perspective on everything that SD talks about on these blogs. So how is that going off-topic? Just because you don't have a perspective from your faith on a particular issue doesn't mean you get pissed off if someone else's faith discusses such things.
I normally don't respond or comment on these blogs UNLESS someone spreads misinformation about Islam or attacks a culture that they seemingly dont know about. Lately I have been commenting a lot because of the excessive Islam-bashing. It's a simple rule of thumb: you stop being arrogant and attacking other peoples' beliefs and no one will attack you back. But I guess these days pre-emption is the in thing, even if it be verbal bashing! And then its open season on Islam and Muslims. Couple that with the inability of democratic powers to force the "Islamists" into submission and it all makes sense why you have to come on someone's blog to vent out your frustrations.
As for digging holes,
samuraisam-
Why don't you then tell your friends who are busy typing all kinds of trash here before I even commented? Or is it that all those 8090 words, that you took the pain of counting, were mine?
You people have very little tolerance for anything remotely Islamic. You want to go around bashing Islam and when someone tries to defend his/her faith you start crying like buffoons! Sore losers! Heads I win, tails you lose is your simple philosophy.
" Or is it that all those 8090 words, that you took the pain of counting, were mine?"
CTRL-A, CTRL-C, START>RUN>C:\program files\microsoft office\Office10\winword.exe, CTRL-V, TOOLS>WORD COUNT.
DON'T FLATTER YOURSELF
"You people have very little tolerance for anything remotely Islamic."
"You people"?
I suggest you re-read the large number of comments from beginning and see who really brought religion into this discussion.
"Heads I win, tails you lose is your simple philosophy."
That's funny, you don't know what religion I am, I could be any religion, I haven’t specified my religion, you don't know what philosophies I follow, or even if I follow any at all.
All I can say is at least the people bashing Balushi used to do in here, was laughable. You all are just getting mean now.
Arabs did not invent the number system. It was invented in India and is also called Hindu numerals. Get your facts right.
I apologize crazy. I must be mistaken. However, I did say mathematics, meaning common laws or mathematical equations, etc. I could still be misinformed, and if I am thank you for giving me something to look into and clarify.
None the less, the point I was making at that time (in this conversation) was how ridiculous the claim that you if you didn't invent it, you shouldn't use it was. So, it was invented in India, only Indians should use it according to some of the comments made by some people, that took place forever ago and think I was forgotten and has been long since been dissolved.
How in the world did I miss your comment before I mentioned how useful Balushi would be right now in this ever-thickening chain of personal insults towards other bloggers?! Right now, this place is a PERFECT picture of what the UAE is really like in real society. Everyone hates everyone because they just can’t agree to disagree, or accept they’ve made a mistake but instead use petty insults and fake smiles.
Barney said it best (or at least I think it was Barney), “Can’t we all just get along?”
No, tainted female. This discussion does not represent the multi cultural fabric of the UAE. Probably Iran/Afghanistan. The fun part is that it's a one man crusade against god knows what. As someone pointed above, this discussion has little to do with Islam. Yet we have so much Islam to discuss about on just 3 sentences. No one here still has a proper answer as to why she wasn't given the same punishment, and all we have is bloody rhetoric.
Could al-republican for once make a logical and reasoned evaluation of anything without dragging it into a religious discourse? I doubt it.
Im sorry crazy, you may have invented it, but hte arabs certainly refined your numbers, so much that they put into place two systems across the Empires. In the east the Indo-Arabic was used, and a refined version of the Indian numerals was used by some Islamic thinkers in the west. The Americans invented the space shuttle by refining german rocketry techniques. The Arabs invented todays numbers by refining Indian Numerical Techniques.
Eh.. this conversation has been hijacked to the point of arguing about the origin of maths? I think its time SD posted a new article!
" Do you really think your people have brains? UAE and its people(Locals) are approximately 150 yrs behind Europe and USA."
speaks volumes about you my dear.
Ok..let me take your arguement and ask you who is running the UAE..cause if itsn't our Sheikhs then it must be somebody who you still dont agree with..and I guess with a preson who can only see black or white (all bad ..all good) you will never be a person who is happy or content..
I will leave all the brain and smartness to you..cause you obviously need it.
and in your lame blog cokey you mention the fact you HATE the UAE..then why on earth are you here..to spread your ignorance..
You are a sad case for someone that young..
just a sad little thing..go find a happier place..I doubt you will ever find one...
Tainted Female:
You don't have your facts wrong on the Arabic Numerals. In fact, Algebra, Algorithms, Geometry and many other mathematical disciplines were formulated by Muslims (mostly from Arabia and Persia). The very names of these mathematical principles smell of Arabic! You can google information for further clarification.
browser:
Hehe, I certainly caught you red-handed, didn't I? Smart "Talaban", aren't I! you are more than welcome to correct me at any point. You probably have a problem with the fact that I breathe :P
Samuraisam and pretty much everyone else who has a problem with me bringing in an Islamic perspective on things:
PRAY tell me what you all are doing by bashing UAE laws in places like Ras Al-Khaimah? Clearly you are bashing the laws in those states being FULL aware of those laws being driven by the Islamic Sharee'ah! So don't you tell me that I am Islamizing anything! See, that is the problem: you all want to bash UAE/Islamic laws and when someone defends it, you all start crying like little pansies! What, you can't handle criticism thrown back at you? If you fear getting burnt, dont start the bloody fire!
As for you what philosophy you subscribe to, I don't really care. One thing is as clear as daylight is your damned bias and hate for Islam! So that is your line of argumentation/philosophy - hate Islam.
Cheers!
In fact, Algebra, Algorithms, Geometry and many other mathematical disciplines were formulated by Muslims (mostly from Arabia and Persia).
Ah yes, Euclid...that well known Muslim who was developing geometric theory in ancient Greece some 800 years before Islam came into existence.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: change your reference material.
Tim Newman-
Change my reference material to what? To the kind of material Colin Powell gave to the UN about Saddam's nukes?? Hahaha :)
Nice! Check out the open HATE exhibited by Mr. Cokey :)
Won't take too long for everyone to come out of their closets?
Change my reference material to what?
Something which does not tell you that "Algebra, Algorithms, Geometry and many other mathematical disciplines were formulated by Muslims", and instead points you to their rightful origins.
Tim Newman:
The following is all taken from en.wikipedia.org:
Algorithm:
The word algorithm comes from the name of the 9th century Persian mathematician Abu Abdullah Muhammad bin Musa al-Khwarizmi. The word algorism originally referred only to the rules of performing arithmetic using Hindu-Arabic numerals but evolved via European Latin translation of al-Khwarizmi's name into algorithm by the 18th century. The word evolved to include all definite procedures for solving problems or performing tasks.
Algebra:
The word "algebra" is named after the Arabic word "al-jabr" from the title of the book Al-Kitab al-Jabr wa-l-Muqabala, meaning The book of Summary Concerning Calculating by Transposition and Reduction, a book written by Al-Khwarizmi in 820. The word al-jabr means "reunion". Al-Khwarizmi is often considered the "father of algebra" (though that title is also given to Diophantus), as much of his works on reduction are still in use today. Another Persian mathematician Omar Khayyam developed algebraic geometry and found the geometric solution of the general cubic equation, while Indian mathematician Bhaskara and Chinese mathematician Zhu Shijie solved some higher-order equations.
Geometry-
The Islamic Caliphate (Islamic Empire) established across the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, Portugal, Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan, began around 640 CE. Islamic mathematics during this period was primarily algebraic rather than geometric, though there were important works on geometry. Scholarship in Europe declined and eventually the Hellenistic works of antiquity were lost to them, and survived only in the Islamic centers of learning.
Although the Muslim mathematicians are most famed for their work on algebra, number theory and number systems, they also made considerable contributions to geometry, trigonometry and mathematical astronomy, and were responsible for the development of algebraic geometry. Geometrical magnitudes were treated as "algebraic objects" by most Muslim mathematicians however.
You stupid American bum! :) You probably would have believed me if I quoted from a Tabloid!
Cheers!
Nobody is contesting that Muslims contributed to some degree to the fields of mathematics. What I am contending is your claim that "Algebra, Algorithms, Geometry and many other mathematical disciplines were formulated by Muslims" and its implication that these disciplines originated with Muslims and their contribution renders all other efforts insignificant.
And as for:
You stupid American bum!
Will you please change your reference material? You get almost everything wrong that is possible to get wrong, and to get things right really does not take much effort.
Timmy:
You said, "Will you please change your reference material? You get almost everything wrong that is possible to get wrong, and to get things right really does not take much effort. "
I can SWEAR that sounds like you are talking to your State department and foreign policy pundits! :P Point being, give your invaluable advise where it is needed rather than just a blog!
Let's hope you guys can "get things right" before you do something to Iran or Syria. After all, as you say, it "really does not take much effort" to get things right!
Here is what I have found out about the case (after talking to some friends):
The girl and guy both got 70 lashes for fornication. The man got 20 lashes for consumption of alcohol and the woman got 20+20 for consumption for alcohol as well as possession of alcohol. That makes 90 for the man and 110 for the woman. Let me clarify that this IS NOT confirmed, but comes from some good sources.
The remainder 40, I do not know what she got those for. Like I said, the 90 and 150 are accumulations of their individul crimes. Seems like the woman was convicted of more crimes than the man.
Can we stop crying now?
I can SWEAR that sounds like you are talking to your State department and foreign policy pundits!
Nope. It's just some advice to help you stop posting complete garbage on the internet and passing it off as informed opinion or fact. And as I've said before, until you desist from said activity, I will continue to offer this helpful advice.
As to the specifics of your post, I am aware of no state department or foreign policy pundit that holds authority on the origins of mathematical disciplines or my nationality.
Timmy:
Just stop crying for God's sake! Or for Democracy's sake? hehe
You are most welcome to remind me of the "garbage" I talk about, I will just conveniently add you to the list of al-republican-haters along with broswer et al.
Had you paid attention to just the etymology ofthese words you would have exercized some restraint in shooting a response. But, I guess, your happy-go-lucky habbit of firing me for anything I say backfired. Yes, I will give you this much that Euclid is credited as one of the pioneers of Geometry, but neither can yuo take away the arabs contribution to it nor do you seem to care that it can be FURTHER traced back to the babylonians. You can continue inflating your ego, but clearly your arrogance and ignorance was exposed! I am going to just end it with this last comment of mine and leave you to your childish tantrums.
Can we stop crying now?
Sorry - but no. We're still 40 out ;)
You are most welcome to remind me of the "garbage" I talk about, I will just conveniently add you to the list of al-republican-haters along with broswer et al.
Do that. I added you to the long list of "people on the internet who should be embarrassed into making fewer silly statements" a long time ago.
Had you paid attention to just the etymology ofthese words you would have exercized some restraint in shooting a response.
I paid plenty of attention, although I learned nothing new. The etymological origins of algebra and algorithm are well known, but this does nothing whatsoever to support your rather daft claim.
Yes, I will give you this much that Euclid is credited as one of the pioneers of Geometry, but neither can yuo take away the arabs contribution to it nor do you seem to care that it can be FURTHER traced back to the babylonians.
That may well be true, but you claimed that it was Muslims who were the pioneers of geometry, even though Euclid and Pythagoras, to name but two, were formulating geometrical theories centuries before Islam came into existence. As for the Arabic contribution to geometry, I have yet to see anything which can compare with the Greeks' achievements, and your reference to its origins lying further back in Babylon have, I suspect, no evidence to support it.
You can continue inflating your ego, but clearly your arrogance and ignorance was exposed! I am going to just end it with this last comment of mine and leave you to your childish tantrums.
No childish tantrums here. The good thing about internet forums is that everything is on record, and any objective observer can quite easily see that I have conducted this debate in an adult manner and refrained from petty insults and ad hominem attacks. Rather unlike your own conduct, I might add.
OK, cutting out all the useless things you said (why do I even bother *sigh*), you said that you DOUBT that the babylonians had anything to do with Geometry?? Allahu Akbar!
GOOGLE, my friend, GOOGLE. Do you seriously think anyone could make the pyramids and other mesopotamian wonders without having known geometry? You don't seem to know much mathematics, do you?
SD, hehe. Common, give me SOME credit!
OK, cutting out all the useless things you said (why do I even bother *sigh*), you said that you DOUBT that the babylonians had anything to do with Geometry??
...
Do you seriously think anyone could make the pyramids and other mesopotamian wonders without having known geometry?
The pyramids are in what was Babylon, capital of Mesopotamia?!!!
Good grief, will you please get a decent encyclopedia or something? Turn to the section which deals with the pyramids, and revel in your new-found knowledge that they are in Egypt.
you said that you DOUBT that the babylonians had anything to do with Geometry??
And, whilst we're at it, I said no such thing. I said that you would be hard pushed to find evidence that the origin of geometry can be traced back to Babylonians, not that they were not practioners themselves.
Tim Newman:
I keep promising myself that I will not respond to you, but final orations are anything, but final!
I was not talking about the Egyptian pyramids!! Had I been talking about them, I would have mentioned the Sphinx, too. I was refering to the ZIGGURAT in Persia, Iran (which formed part of ancient Mesopotamia). The Ziggurat is ALSO a pyramid, but I guess for your pea-sized American brain, pyramid = egypt. As if no other pyramid in the world exists!
Try googling the Ziggurat and tell me what you make of it. I personally think its more beautiful than the Egyptian pyramids :)
In fact, I googled a nice website talking about Mesopotamian pyramids for you:
http://www.crystalinks.com/ziggurat.html
I hope this shows up fine. Can someone please show me how to add links to one's comments?
Hey, well done Al Republican!! You are capable of doing some research!! Your pea-sized Pakistani brain does work after all.
Let's see if this is the start of greater accuracy in your posts, or whether it is a one-off.
Hahaha, you are fun, Timmy :)
Cokey..."Its a fact that no sheikh is capable of being a leader. Its all the brains of Americans and Europeans who are fed a million per year with all expenses paid. "
Get a life...I have never seen a stupid person who can say such a thing...wether its arogance or pure ignorance..you are a little looser who has no respect for anybody not even to your self..but "being STUCK" in our country..nobody is ever stuck..just get a life in those countries you mentioned and stop distrubing us..
This blog is full of adult bullies..probably frustrated adults who just need to vent..and are don't have real people to vent to.
Sad Sad sad..if you guys represent American's and Europeans..then I can see why many have no respect for you...
"The Ziggurat is ALSO a pyramid, but I guess for your pea-sized American brain, pyramid = egypt. As if no other pyramid in the world exists!"
Hahahaha...what are you talking about Al-republican...pyramids are in Disney...
I can't believe our country harbours so many haters..
Hot Lemon & Honey-
Unfortunately, I am the lone "Talabans" here, hehe. The Taliban represent all the detestable things possible to the Europeans! I wonder what they feel like talking to a dirty towelhead and sometimes getting bashed good as well :P
By the way, I have some REALLY yummy information about the Christian convert, Mr. Abdul Rahman, in Afghanistan. I am SOOO tempted to put it up here, but what the heck, let's just leave it :P
Cokey-
Did you ever think what would it make you to be giving advise to "losers"? You are so happily admitting working for "losers" and being stuck working FOR them as well! Bill Gates probably isn't a loser in your books, so you couldn't get work with him? If the cap fits, wear it!
Speaks volume about your own plight. No offence meant, but I really do hope you are saying all this out of anger/frustration rather than seriously meaning it.
Cheers!
"yes the brains are foriegn and we are losers" thats what you like to think...People like you make people like Taliban..
The closest I can resemble is you is to a drum...loud..but empty..
Drum away...
"Speaks volume about your own plight. No offence meant, but I really do hope you are saying all this out of anger/frustration rather than seriously meaning it" Just a bitter ingnorant expat..Grandiose delusions...thats what it is..go take some lithium Cokey..Even Bill Gates will not claim what he has acheived...
Cokey...grow up.
And I suggest you find a purpose in life...whinning will take you no where...
AS I said you are a good excuse for Talibans existance...you hate us in our country, you hate our country and you actually say it.. what are you?
As for you what philosophy you subscribe to, I don't really care. One thing is as clear as daylight is your damned bias and hate for Islam! So that is your line of argumentation/philosophy - hate Islam.
How about you shut the fuck up. Stop making assumptions, when you have neither evidence nor knowledge of anything that I stand for or what I believe in.
"whinning will take you no where...
That's funny, I was under the impression winning was a good thing.
"And I suggest you find a purpose in life..."
Says the person who tries to target the most arrogant people possible, do you really think, that someone who blatantly states what they hate is going to change their opinion based on your ramblings? Why do you bother? It is much more easier to get someone to hate than to love.
"The closest I can resemble is you is to a drum...loud..but empty.."
Can you PLEASE come up with a new fucking proverb?
What you are insinuating is that everyones words here are useless because they are on the internet, well guess fucking what? THAT INCLUDES YOU DIPSHIT.
This blog is full of adult bullies..probably frustrated adults who just need to vent..and are don't have real people to vent to.
You are aware that the same goes for you? YOU are bullying people aswell.
Kettle calling the pot black yet again.
Samuraisam-
All things aside, I could understand if you speak to me with those expletives, but to a woman?
Shameful, I tell you.
ssosw-
You have very valid points in there. I started posting my opinions in these blogs because I noticed how people were either bashing things without understanding or just jumping in the "bash-UAE-and-all-things-Islamic" which is set up by the former.
I really do respect a few individuals because they do show hints of goodness. It's easy to get embroiled in such online polemics and get really trashy to one another. But, that is just a fact about polemics - you sometimes have to be rude to get your point across.
Sometimes, and often these day, I think I am wasting too much time here, but I do sincerely feel that someone should speak out from the other camp. I still haven't reached my saturation point and I don't mind being labeled a terrorist or Taliban.
I would just like to take this opportunity to apologize to Tim Newman for refering to him rudely when I could have avoided it (the usual swipes at him being American).
"All things aside, I could understand if you speak to me with those expletives, but to a woman?"
Yeah, I’m kind of impatient with retards that accuse me of racism.
If you want to fling stupid accusations at me, don't expect me to keep it clean.
Shameful, I tell you.
Shameful that I called an idiot an idiot? I don't care where anyone is from, or what religion they follow, what color their skin is, whether they take anthrax or crack cocaine by the canister, I don't care if they support the war in Iraq, or if they are part of the Jamaican Bobsled team, I will call them an idiot if they are an idiot.
samuraisam-
You illustrate the absolute decay of morals and ethics in the Western society, which I keep talking about here.
The loss is your own, buddy. I tried to say it for your own good.
All things aside, I could understand if you speak to me with those expletives, but to a woman?
I have to object to this one - I love a good swear!
There is nothing more delicate about a woman's ear physiology or the language receptors of her brain that would make hearing swearing more harmful or upsetting to her, compared to a man ;)
SD-
Why shouldn't one think twice before talking to a woman when they are the torch-bearers of humanity? When we are taught to take care of women as head of the house, we are also instructed to be kind to them with our behavior.
As the Prophet (SAW) said regarding the creation of Eve (women), "Women are like the bone of a rib-cage - brittle and bent. So if you try to straighten them (beyond what is natural), they will snap! So be patient and kind with them." A good lesson with some classy humor :)
Regardless of woman or man, I don't think it is appropriate to talk to anybody in that language. Women deserve more respect simply because they are mothers of humanity :)
Cheers!
I would just like to take this opportunity to apologize to Tim Newman for refering to him rudely when I could have avoided it (the usual swipes at him being American).
Apology accepted in full. Don't worry about it.
"You illustrate the absolute decay of morals and ethics in the Western society, which I keep talking about here.
The loss is your own, buddy. I tried to say it for your own good."
That's pretty funny, I don't live in the west, nor do I claim to follow western ideals, I follow my own ideals.
Al Republican, The very act of placing women on some sort of pedestal is exactly what makes people think the sexes are not equal. I think SD is alluding to the fact that women today are not asking for better (which is subjective anyway) treatment, rather equal treatment. We don't want or need men's protection.
Regardless of woman or man, I don't think it is appropriate to talk to anybody in that language.
That I agree with, though I love a good swear myself, particularly when I stub my toe etc.
Women deserve more respect simply because they are mothers of humanity :)
That I don't agree with, though I appreciate it is kindly meant. I do however believe in giving up seats for pregnant women (and sick people, and the elderly).
My nemesis, hehe-
Ah, after exposing (pathetically easily, too) your country of origin, I have been proven correct, yet again, that you are a Shi'ite! You make it absurdly easy to counter your own arguments :)
Instead of concentrating on the narrators character, which I might add is COMPLETELY ill-informed and based on unauthentic evidences, why don't we talk about your brilliant character where you LIED about yourself? Like I said, I have read way too much shi'i literature to fall for your tricks. So you are allowed to observe Taqiyah on a blog, too? :P
I am not going to get embroiled in a useless diatribe with you regarding the Sahabah (RadiAllahu Ajma'een). You may continue to badmouth them all you want, you will not be able to invoke a response from me simply because this blog isn't about shi'ah-sunni polemics. Tough luck, Marji'i :)
Cheers!
Anonymous...
I agree...its funny how they see treating women in a speacial way is a weekness..I heared that so many times and then just decided...as long as I am comfortable with the way men respect us here..then thats what matters..
And yes...this is not the place to discuss Islam cause most people here have their fixed opinions and dont' tolerate others...those who really want to get their questions answered..wether its about inequality or discmination between men and women..should keep an open mind and listen to what the people concerned have to say..if they don't agree,being rude is no the way to express it.
They are just creating enemies by attacking people's faith and culture like that..and the sad part is that they do that in the country that they chose to live in..
And Al republican...thanks.
Dear Anonymous and ssosw-
You both have really spoken the truth. I will, in sha Allah, heed your advices!
Thanks for the reminder :)
If you want to do it, then return to your countries. We do not want bad, inhumane and animal-acting things here.
No, but you've got them in your own community, so you might want to shut the fk up.
Despite the fact that locals represent about 20% of the population, I've had inappropriate advances and stares from about fifty times as many locals as as I have expats.
When you all start living like you preach that we're supposed to live, let me know. Then I'll happily pack my bags and be on my way.
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