Ports in a storm
One of the interesting side effects of the furore over the P&O takeover by Dubai Ports - which has been sheer pull-up-a-deckchair-in-glee time for most outside observers, surely none more so than losing rival PSA and any non-Bush supporters - is the realisation that Dubai (and the UAE) will face increasing criticism and scrutiny as it becomes an international player.
We often laud "progress" in the sandlands press, but the truth of the matter is that the censorship situation here is pathetic by western standards. One of the reasons tyrants and despots can rule elsewhere in the region quite happily is because it is forbidden to criticise them, according to Chapter 7 Article 76 of the UAE publications law:
"No article blemishing the president of an Arab, Islamic or any other friendly state will be published."
How very convenient for Saddam Hussein and anyone else choosing to rule through violence and oppression: silence and tolerance by their neighbours.
What the UAE is likely to find particularly hard to stomach, as its own papers churn out endless glowing tributes to progress and the "wise vision of the leadership" is the fact that international media is not constrained by Chapter 7 Article 70:
"No criticism shall be made against the Head of State or Rulers of the Emirates"
Which is why the sandlands should expect to see many more articles like Slate's How United Are the United Arab Emirates - Why some emirates are more important than others - currently an unthinkable topic in a UAE local paper. Perhaps it's time to grow up, open up, and take it on the chin.
We often laud "progress" in the sandlands press, but the truth of the matter is that the censorship situation here is pathetic by western standards. One of the reasons tyrants and despots can rule elsewhere in the region quite happily is because it is forbidden to criticise them, according to Chapter 7 Article 76 of the UAE publications law:
"No article blemishing the president of an Arab, Islamic or any other friendly state will be published."
How very convenient for Saddam Hussein and anyone else choosing to rule through violence and oppression: silence and tolerance by their neighbours.
What the UAE is likely to find particularly hard to stomach, as its own papers churn out endless glowing tributes to progress and the "wise vision of the leadership" is the fact that international media is not constrained by Chapter 7 Article 70:
"No criticism shall be made against the Head of State or Rulers of the Emirates"
Which is why the sandlands should expect to see many more articles like Slate's How United Are the United Arab Emirates - Why some emirates are more important than others - currently an unthinkable topic in a UAE local paper. Perhaps it's time to grow up, open up, and take it on the chin.
Labels: censorship, media
41 Comments:
I'm impressed that Daniel Engber almost got correct his spelling of all 7 emirates!
It isn't just the censorship that will come under scrutiny, it will be the entire dealings of the UAE.
Any failures or shortcomings (as seen by the western world) will be loudly lauded in every media avenue that they can use. We all know how good the press can be at portraying anything in a bad light.
If some people don't like the (often perceived) negativity of some of the bloggers, just wait until the world press gets going - it will be "no holds barred". At the moment all we get are reporters coming here on all-expenses-paid junkets to write about how wonderful everything is. The next wave will be those who come as independents or on behalf of their publications to write about what they can find wrong with it - and there will be some who will be well paid to find the dirt.
Etisalat may be able to block the UAE residents from the truth, but it can't block the rest of the world from seeing it, and while the UAE is attempting to attract foreign investment, how the country is portrayed should greatly matter to everyone.
I'm not sure why non-Bush supporters would be looking on with glee. Bush has been one of the rare voices of sanity coming from the US government on this issue.
The non-Bushies are having a field day with this issue due to how the Bush admin seems to have fallen into its own trap of fear mongering. If the deal had gone through before the boundaries of "with us" vs. "against us" were drawn then this kind of narrow-minded & prejudiced public outcry would not have been as widespread.
Thanks for highlighting the need for open public discourse in the Emirates, SD.
We may not agree what the shortcomings of the Bush admin are. The one that's beginning to bug me more is that they were caught unprepared for the attack on the ports deal. Fearful people react to any change in their environment, especially unexplained change.
nzm writes:
all we get are reporters coming here on all-expenses-paid junkets to write about how wonderful everything is
Yes, although most of those sorts of stories are located in the travel section written by writers masquerading as reporters, you can see even news reporters censoring themselves presumably to ensure continued access to a source.
If you think about what Etisilat does, it finds itself as the conduit for material that could violate the sections of the law SD quoted. So it is not so much actually keeping the negative reporting out, any more than it can keep those outside from reading what is reported about the UAE.
Rather it is following the tactic that respect for the law would be undercut if the monopoly ISP didn't at least try to enforce it.
what holds UAE together against any foreign interference, although its the only country in the region without any kind of election, is the support of its own ppl. the majority agree with what the government is doing and wish no changes in terms of political democracy and journalist freedom.
and even if they do, they dont like to say it in front of the whole world, they prefer to discuss it directly with the rulers or law makers. because the relationship between the government and its people is more like a family.
however, the government is evolving to the better and will continue to do so at its bass. radical unstudied changes fail most of time, iraq and afghanistan r the biggest example of that.
uae max - Good points. Especially since I agree in the case of the uae.
testing
SD-
I thought your blog was supposed to be non-serious, but it seems the bias inside you, which is quite natural for any writer, is becoming quite prominent. You are definitely losing a lot of credibility.
Anyways, I agree with the locals who point out that they are happy with the standards that have been put in place by their rulers.
I just hope that Muslims around the World are learning a lesson with these occurences. It is odd that Western "values" and practices had played a big role in dividing us, but now the ulterior motives of these "values" are becoming a reason for us to unite.
In sha Allah, the day is not far when this nation of 1.6 billion people will get their acts together and stand up for what we believe in and start forcing our standards and values on a people who have lost all of theirs.
I thought your blog was supposed to be non-serious, but it seems the bias inside you, which is quite natural for any writer, is becoming quite prominent. You are definitely losing a lot of credibility.
Being honest is losing me credibility?!
Here's what I'm biased towards: freedom, openness, enfranchisement. Here's what I'm biased against: censorship, personal morality enforcement (note the "personal" there - I'm not calling for public nudity to be tolerated, but I believe things like "adultery" should be decriminalised) and hereditary-based power systems, because they are not fair if human beings are supposed to be equal, which I belive they are.
I totally agree that the leaders here on the whole have so far been great, and that they enjoy popular support. A "benevolent dictatorship", as many have described it.
But ask yourself: what happens - not just here, but anywhere - if a country's leaders stop being benevolent? What options do the common people have to bring about change if they are not enfranchised?
I'd tend to agree, the more international the UAE becomes, the more press it is going to be given, not all of it positive, and not all of it just about Dubai, about it's rulers, there are some stories floating around on the intarweb that no one would especially be proud of....
I can't see how people think this is unrealistic, it is a highly realistic view on what is going to happen.
Want Dubai to be the "happenin'" place? then you can't dismiss all foreign publications because they dish a bit of dirt.
Personally I'm all for totalitanarianism, democracy is boring, look at all the democratic countries compared to some good ole' ass beating countries.
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed - but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock
Can anyone tell if i've lived in the middle east for too damn long?
SD-
You bring forward excellent points about aristocracy and dictatorships where people are left with no choice. If the ruler in such a place starts passing laws that will affect the public in a bad way, it really becomes a problem.
There is a lot of sense in what you say, in fact there is quite a bit of sense in some values the West preaches. But, sadly, Westerners fail to realize the priorities of affected Muslim youth.
Yes, we lack proper representation and hence we get very violent in protests burning effigies and all that abhorrent stuff. But, what really ticks us off is when we see the West talk about freedom and democracy and yet apply double-standards vis-a-vis their policies of backing such dictators and aristocracies. Musharraf, the King of Jordan, Abdullah, Hosni Mubarak et al are all cases in point.
And when the public speaks up and elects what the West terms as "terrorists" to power, suddenly freedom and democracy go down the drain. So we are damned if we do and damned if we dont!
Ariel Sharon is a bloody war criminal and a terrorist to us, but did you see Muslims go bonkers and stop talking to Israel once he was elected as PM? Whether we like it or not, the Jews of Israel elected Ariel Sharon to represent them, so why is it hard for the West to accept Hamas or the Islamic brotherhood in Egypt or the mullahs of Pakistan?
Apart from all political rant, please understand that for us Muslims, freedom of speech and other goody things are NOT a priority. We have huge issues like that of a homeland for the Palestinians, Kashmir, Chechnya and more recently Iraq and Afghanistan. All of these problems are a fall out of British Imperialism or more recently that of American hegemony. Be sincere to yourself and think of the ROOT cause to all these problems. It has nothing to do with dictatorial regimes or the lack of freedom of press or veiled woman etc. These are foreign-inflicted problems and perhaps Afghanistan is the only problem that the West has a leg to stand on (which is why America got so much support for it in the first place).
Until we can fix these issues, freedom of press and other issues will just have to wait.
al-republican,
Agreed: This is the way I put it,
Kissinger's dictator's club. Better, America's dictator's club. Kissinger merely gave it an intellectual gloss. After all, the Taliban is the legacy of American policy. Saddam was for a time befriended by America. The rise of radical elements cannot be disassociated from a long history of American support for tainted regimes in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Others will point to America's complicity in sustaining dictatorships in South America. All the result of a false hope in stability, a false hope that stability would effectively make the world beyond our borders safe to be ignored. As if dictatorship was an unfortunate byproduct of a necessary policy to make Americans safe.
Far from being an unfortunate byproduct, the free world's support for dictatorship in other corners of the world plants the seeds of its own destruction. And so does ignoring dictatorship. History ain't over.
(Whole post is here: The Emirates Economist.)
I rather strongly assert that the UAE fits the club of democracies here: The Emirates Economist
John Chilton-
Indeed dictatorial regimes are an American policy. Come to think of it, it is much easier to handle dictators rather than a democratically elected leader.
It is easier to handle one person (who isn't popularly elected) and who owes his existence as head of a state to the powers-that-be. When 9/11 happened, it would have been very inconvenient for America if Pakistan had a running democracy where the parliament would have taken its time to respond to Bush's 7 terms for Pakistan. Instead, they got immediate response from Musharraf and co-operation on all 7 point - a fact that stumped America itself as they thought Pakistan wouldnt agree to at least 3 of the 7 terms (Bob Woodward's, "Bush at War" highlights this).
In a one-man system, the ruler is not accountable to anybody so he doesn't have to take popular opinion into account. Most Pakistanis, post 9/11, did not want to let their land be used by the Americans to launch attacks on Afghanistan, but Musharraf went ahead and offered America unstinted co-operation on military fronts. Even now, we have bombings by the American airforce where Musharraf has no prior knowledge.
America sits pretty with these things as all the people can do is burn effigies of Bush. But, for a person like Musharraf, its a bit different. He has to pay a price for his services as a marrionette of the Americans - 4 attempts on his life, plus the everyday noise of the Pakistani population against his excesses.
So, I ask my western friends to remember who installed Hamid Karzai as head of Afghanistan and Jalal Talabani in Iraq? 25 years down the road if you lecture us that we have tyrant, aristocratic rulers who take away our freedom, please dont forget your contribution in this.
I know someone will come and say, "But, Karzai and Talabani were elected..." well, folks, you all know how fraudulent these "elections" are and can you be serious about holding elections in a country that is occupied by a foreign military against the UN's charter?
al-republican - I don't disagree with you on most points. But you have to bear in mind when I criticise the "east", it doesn't imply per se that I think the "west" is perfect either. Many countries have clearly pro-semitic bias in their laws, ie the "holocaust denial" case. It's utterly hypocritical of the west to have these laws, no one could disagree.
Apart from all political rant, please understand that for us Muslims, freedom of speech and other goody things are NOT a priority.
Agreed - you want stability first. But as you point out, the playing field - rightly or wrongly (and frankly wrongly) - is a "western" one. With the US (unfairly) controlling and dictating world policy, either you negotiate on their terms, or you don't progress. This doesn't just apply to the Middle East, it applies to other western nations as well, unless they are able to form blocs powerful enough to have more leverage (the EU). Or you just have violent, bloody protests which worsen this region's image in world eyes.
You also have to move on from the endless "root cause" argument. Yes - we know the reasons why things are the way they are. But that doesn't change anything. It's about growing up and accepting blame, you can't play the victim card forever, it gets you nowhere.
And I say this as someone who abhors the US's racist, biased policies in the Middle East. Don't think I'm on "their" side over this, because I'm sure as hell not.
It has nothing to do with dictatorial regimes or the lack of freedom of press or veiled woman etc.
But you see it does. It means that organisations such as the taliban can come in and entirely fuck up a country and brutalise its people (Afghanistan) because no one criticises them. It means people can be arrested/jailed/executed for trying to debate valid issues and call for reforms in their corrupt countries (Saudi) on things such as trumped up blashphemy charges. It means there is no real open debate about Shariah law, because if you disagree with the wrong mullah, you can get accused of heresy.
What the recent violent protests did - over something that happened in a foreign, sovereign nation - was make the west (including me) think this:
"There is no bloody way at this point in time we want to give any more voice or power to theocrats, within or without our borders. On the contrary, we in fact need to increase our legislation to protect ourselves and prevent their further interference."
Which is really not going to help things here. Blocking .il - what is the point of that? Why do they do it? Pride, immaturity, sheer bloody-mindedness.
The non-Bushies are having a field day with this issue due to how the Bush admin seems to have fallen into its own trap of fear mongering.
Protectionism and a suspicion of foreigners predates Bush by, what? About 200 years?
what holds UAE together against any foreign interference, although its the only country in the region without any kind of election, is the support of its own ppl.
Up to a point, I agree. But the UAE still outsources protection from foreign interference to the United States, which in turn brings foreign interference of a different kind. The first Gulf War was a stark reminder about how the ultimate security of most Gulf States is guaranteed by the USA, and a potential nuclear Iran might demonstrate this once again.
We have huge issues like that of a homeland for the Palestinians, Kashmir, Chechnya and more recently Iraq and Afghanistan. All of these problems are a fall out of British Imperialism or more recently that of American hegemony.
I'm curious to hear about Britain's or the USA's role in Chechnya. Care to fill me in?
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well, folks, you all know how fraudulent these "elections" are and can you be serious about holding elections in a country that is occupied by a foreign military against the UN's charter?
Well, no. There are a good many who believe that the elections were not fraudulent and that the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan is not against the UN's charter. The UN is indeed one such body holding this opinion.
Indeed dictatorial regimes are an American policy.
Yes, along with the policy of pretty much every other superpower that has existed. The USSR, for example, were not exactly shy about installing dictatorial regimes, who then went on to buthcer their own people and invade their neighbours.
The rise of radical elements cannot be disassociated from a long history of American support for tainted regimes in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
It cannot be disassociated from a long history of Soviet support in the Middle East either, but few people care to remember that.
Firstly, I mentioned Chechnya as it is an outstanding issue. Perhaps I should have been more careful and mentioned it in another statement. But, by implication it looks like it is accepted that the other problems are the child of British-American influence in this part of the World.
Secondly, Tim Newman, you keep retorting to the argument that "...the Soviets did it, too..." I hope you see how you are comparing your nation's deeds to a has-been evil empire. It gives more credibility to my assertion that American hegemony is at its blatant worst and there is not a damn thing anyone is doing about it (except for the Muslims, albeit there are some states - not Muslim - who are playing this game a little more obscurely). Just like Soviet expansionism met its eventual end, American hegemony will run out of gas (quite literally, too) pretty soon, in sha Allah.
Finally, to SD: I see where your worries are. Clearly people aren't too well-versed with the Islamic Sharee'ah. Yes, it does preach some things that the Western (eastern, too, actually) person would find deplorable, but you will find in these laws some very enlightening aspects, which if you only knew, you would want to embrace at the earliest! The debate is long; perhaps we can leave this for another time.
I also see how you invoked the case of the Taliban. Again, there are a lot of misconceptions flying around about them. I must admit I was not their "favorite number 1" (as one local newspaper would say!) fan, but a lot of what they did was done for a REASON. I would love to go over it systematically - one issue at a time - but again it would require a separate thread.
Let me just conclude by saying that the Qur'an and the sayings of the Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) is our CONSTITUTION. It is sad some Muslims these days wouldn't agree to this statement of mine. We accept it with all its harshness and all its Mercy. It is the Divine Word of God and we are absolutely convinced about that. We invite every objective-minded person to come forward and study it for themselves. As the Qur'an itself commands us about the laws of God:
And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided. (Quran 3:103)
So we will hold onto our beliefs and our way of life (be it governance, marriage, inheritance or any other law) no matter how disgusting anyone may find it. Like I said, the invitation is there to study this religion and find out more about the Prophet of Islam and perhaps you all could understand our stand much better.
In sha Allah, the day is not far when this nation of 1.6 billion people will get their acts together and stand up for what we believe in and start forcing our standards and values on a people who have lost all of theirs.
Al - Republican: what are you talking about? The Muslim Umma forcing its values on the infidels? Get a grip.
@ al-republican
"I also see how you invoked the case of the Taliban. Again, there are a lot of misconceptions flying around about them. I must admit I was not their "favorite number 1" (as one local newspaper would say!) fan, but a lot of what they did was done for a REASON. I would love to go over it systematically - one issue at a time - but again it would require a separate thread."
Yes, they are fantastic reasons. Such as shooting babies, chopping women's feet, blowing up historical statues, denying women every fundamental right - even the right to exist, public lynchings, imprisoning men without beards, raping virgins who're charged with 'heinous' crimes before hanging them...the list is endless. There are NO bloody misconceptions. You should be ashamed of yourself. All your ruminations about general people-forgot-about-the-coup musharraf (who's also an avid taliban supporter), 'terrorist' Ariel Sharon, the benevolent Hamas was something only a lunatic would argue about. But you being a fan of the Taliban...what next? Your role model is Hitler? You should provide David Irving some much needed company.
Well, henceforth, you needn't go at length to prove any warped points your mind has conjured in that ever-beautiful world of yours. I hope someone shows you the light before you become into one of those people whom you fundamentally sympathise with yet deny - to get your point across. A fucking terrorist.
Secondly, Tim Newman, you keep retorting to the argument that "...the Soviets did it, too..." I hope you see how you are comparing your nation's deeds to a has-been evil empire.
In a discussion about how America is to blame for the present day effects of its foreign policy conducted from 1945 until now, it is vitally important to consider the entire geopolitical situation at the time, i.e. how and why the US acted the way it did.
Given that the US foreign policy which is under attack (namely its support for friendly dictators and interference in the Middle East) occurred almost entirely in the context of the Cold War in which it was engaged in countering an agressive and expansionist nuclear-armed Soviet Union, I think it is ludicrous to lambast the US for each and every policy in isolation of the main context under which it was executed.
To do so is like discussing the US invasion of Italy in 1943 without mentioning Germany, or considering it in isolation of WWII.
US policy during the Cold War was wrong in many cases; but many of the problems the region faces today is a result of either Soviet policies, or US reaction to those Soviet policies, and not a result of the US deciding to carry out policy X or Y simply because it felt like it.
yoI wanted to add something previously, but it just slipped my mind. I wanted to highlight the enlightenment of Islamic Law as per the hot topic these days: democracy.
There is a chapter in the Qur'an called "Ash-Shura" that means (loosely) "consultation" or "coming to a conclusion based on consensus". It talks a bit about how Muslims are to elect people as their leaders. Quite surely enough, after the demise of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), his companions elected his successor by process of ELECTION (as opposed to succession going down his family). The next 3 Caliphs were also elected by process of a parliament of representatives/companions who voted for the leader of the Muslim nation.
Clearly Muslims have left this legacy and now we have to be taught this by Westerners who have only started pratcising this very late!
We invite every objective-minded person to come forward and study it for themselves.
Objective minds have done so, and reached the conclusion that it is nothing more than a fairy tale.
Furthermore, they believe those who demand on pain of jail or death totalitarian or even mild adherence to this fairy tale viewpoint should be opposed with the same determination as history's other totalitarianist ideas - Nazism and Communism - were opposed.
For what it's worth, you can safely count me in with those who I describe above.
There are cases where American columnists had to leave the US for writing ‘lefty’ or tabooed articles. Many Canadians writers are banned to enter the US for so-called communism affiliation.
I'm intrigued. Please can you give me the names of those journalists forced to leave the US, or banned from entering, and give us details of their cases. The reason I ask is that I believe what you have written to be utterly false.
So we will hold onto our beliefs and our way of life (be it governance, marriage, inheritance or any other law) no matter how disgusting anyone may find it.
What I find - not "disgusting", that's too strong a word, but "wrong" or "inappropriate" - is the imposition of beliefs. For example everyone should be allowed to hold the belief that adultery is wrong, or head-uncovering is wrong, or alcohol is wrong.
But they shouldn't be able to force that belief or its practice on others, even other muslims.
It needs to be up to the individual person to make their own personal choices. Guidance: fine. Encouragement: fine. Coercion/prosecution: not fine.
It doesn't *mean* anything if someone covers their head through fear, or because they have to, it doesn't make them a better person, it just means they are living in fear. It's only if someone chooses to practice something out of free choice and personal volition that it becomes something of moral worth.
Self-discipline, modesty, temperance: these things may be difficult to learn, but it can be done.
"coming to a conclusion based on consensus"
I have spoken with fairly learned muslims who have told me that the quran is written in such a way that everything is open to debate and revision to suit the appropriate time. ie that determining shariah law is supposed to be a continual process, not something set in stone hundreds of years ago and never challenged. And that this debate itself is a good thing.
But many of these same muslims literally cannot express this view through fear of being deemed heretic. I know a journalist in Pakistan that received death threats when he even broached the topic.
This is what the west "fears" about Islam - random fatwas from (quite honestly) lunatic rogue mullahs to try and crush free and open debate. Witness Salman Rushdie. Where is the mercy, where is the peace?
If Islam is ever to gain greater political sway in the west it has to contain the reactionary urges of its (minority) violent members. At the moment, this is not seen to be happening to a sufficient extent.
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There are too many questions, dogmatic idiosyncracies, and an apparant attitude of not wanting to listen to the other side. So, it will serve no purpose trying to clarify my points. Like Imam Shafi'i (a Muslim Jurisprudic scholar) once said, arguing with arrogant and ignorant people always ends up making oneself look like a fool! I just see objectivity by SD and a couple of other folks, but there really is no point to this.
I would like to, however, point out a few things to Mr. El-Zubeir:
1- The Caliphs of Islam can be from any tribe/nationality. It is just RECOMMENDED that they be from the Qurayshi lineage. This certainly does not make leadership an exclusive right of the Quraysh (who were Makkans). Bear in mind that there were numerous tribes under the Quraysh.
2- The election of a President in a Parliamentary system is done by the ELITES! It is the ministers of Parliament who are elected by the people as their representatives. Once the assembly/parliament (which in arabic is Majlis ash-shura) is formed, they then, after consultation amongst themselves, elect a head of state from a list of candidates. This is exactly what the companions of the Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) did!
3- The Sahaba (companions of the Prophet SAW) didn't fight amongst themselves! The in-fighting that you talk about was witnessed during the last 4 years of the caliphate of the 3rd Caliph, Uthman al-Affan. He was martyred eventually by a band of rebels in Arabia who later came to be known as the Khawareej (who also conspired and killed the 4th Caliph, Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib). Just because the Caliphs were martyred, it does not imply how "undemocratic" Arabia was then. After all, US presidents were assassinated, too! You would be interested to learn the etymology of the word "assassin" (it comes from Arabic). I quote from Merriam-Webster's dictionary:
Etymology: Medieval Latin assassinus, from Arabic hashshAshIn, plural of hashshAsh one who smokes or chews hashish, from hashIsh hashish
1 capitalized : one of a secret order of Muslims that at the time of the Crusades terrorized Christians and other enemies by secret murder committed under the influence of hashish.
Actually, these khawareej were exactly as described above and it was these same band of people who went around killing the Caliphs of Islam. The people of the Islamic Empire refered to them as "hashshasheen". The West discovered this term only later (during the Crusades).
You are right, however, when you say that Islam did not define the exact modus operandi of the election of the Caliphs. This is exactly where the dynamism of the Islamic Sharee'ah lies! It were the scholars of Islam and the companions of the Prophet (SAW) who put forward the process of electioneering. Although, let me make it clear, the process of electioneering in Islam is quite different to that practised by the West. Again, this is another can of worms that need not be opened now.
You are most welcome, transparent soul :)
u're right transparent soul, good one al!
Trobriander-
Agreed, the hashshasheen term was actually coined for the rebels from the Fatimiyyah dynasty of the Isma'ili shi'ites. My point was that the concept of such tactics had started from the early days of Islam (i.e. assassinations of political figures/leaders).
Also, Khawareej is the plural for Khareej, which means losely, discarded or outcasts or someone excommunicated from the community. They were excommunicated for the reasons you state after the battle of Siffeen.
The murderers of Uthman and Ali were never under the influence of hashish (as the fatimids had made it a practice before carrying such attacks) just as the attackers of the Crusaders were not under the influence of hashish either. I drew a parallal just for inference. Sorry, if I misled anyone on that account.
BURN THE WEST!!! TERRIST INFIDILS!!!
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El-Zubeir:
I give the history according to the historians. It is not only history recorded according to the majority of the historians, but also the authenticated ones. Truly, there is another point of view and it is very unauthentic (let alone it being reported by a few people who were not even historians).
Besides, in this discussion, nowhere did we discuss the finer aspects of the Sunni take versus that of the Shi'i! It is a fact that Abu Bakr was the first Caliph; it is a fact Ali ibn Abi Talib was the 4th Caliph; it is a fact that 3 out of the first 4 caliphs were murdered; it is a fact these killers belonged to the same party known was the "khawareej". These are things that both Sunni and Shi'ah acknowledge.
Shi'i may not accept Abu Bakr as the first Caliph of Islam, but nowhere in my postings did I ever bring up this debate of Abu Bakr vs Ali. I just jotted down things as they happened.
Cheers!
el condo:
The debate started with censorship and freedom of press and all the digression that you see was because of one point leading to another. Had you been judiciously reading through the posts, you would have noticed that it was I who chose to stop talking about the issue. I kept on repeating that arguments SD and a few others were making would require another thread altogether.
If you think talking objectively about priorities of the Muslim World is proselytization then I hope you and your ilk realize how shoving democracy and other freedoms down our throats is compulsive proselytization as well!
I have very much enjoyed the intelligent and high toned exchange here. Thanks nzm, Tim, papadose, al-republican and the rest. There's real intellectual ferment going on here.
I've made the analogy that Secret Dubai dairy is like Grand Central Station. I might have to revise that to say it is more like the New York Public Library.
starsky, you seem to be confusing the concepts of democracy and free speech with the concept of private property. Go get your own blog and say what you want. Oh, wait, you already did; well use it. Is the problem that you don't get the same audience unless you take advantage of SD's good nature to draw attention to yourself? It's a free country, but this is SD's house and you are her guest. You seem to be incapable of receiving criticism without taking insult.
starsky, which of you is using ad hominem? Seems like you have a character flaw in that respect. How many starskies do I meet before I can conclude that all starskies receive all criticism as ad hominem and are only capable of arguing ad hominem - which, by the way, is always a fallacious line of argumentation.
Is the problem that you don't get the same audience
Another problem might be that his blog now only allows member comments, and he is the only member.
Despite him saying this:
Hell, if you won’t allow any one to comment on your ridiculous posts I’d rather diss you here in my own space…
I found it quite amusing, but it's really sad more than anything that the main terms of abuse are "fat pig", "double faced tart", "bitter woman", "depressed, sarcastic, sad, negative tart", "tight bitch", "cheap English tart".
Now call me paranoid, but I smell good old-fashioned misogynism there. It's not criticism one can really take seriously.
Now compare that to the approach taken by others who often disagree with my views, such as Al Republican. His arguments are generally reasonable and well-informed. Sometimes they frustrate me, sometimes they interest me. Sometimes he even wins me over on certain points.
Transparent and his sidekick should take a leaf out of AR's book.
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