Stoned to death
Extreme sharia is still live and well in Fujairah it seems, with a man sentenced to be stoned to death for adultery:
The man admitted to being married and unable to bring his wife who stayed home with his children, and added that he met the maid in a market, and repetitively practised adultery with her since then. He was referred to the court, which ordered him to be stoned to death, and the maid to be imprisoned for one year and given 100 lashes.
The maid got a lighter sentence because she wasn't already married. Most likely the stoning will be commuted to jail and deportation on appeal (or through pressure from the Federal government). This is not the kind of publicity the UAE needs right now.
The man admitted to being married and unable to bring his wife who stayed home with his children, and added that he met the maid in a market, and repetitively practised adultery with her since then. He was referred to the court, which ordered him to be stoned to death, and the maid to be imprisoned for one year and given 100 lashes.
The maid got a lighter sentence because she wasn't already married. Most likely the stoning will be commuted to jail and deportation on appeal (or through pressure from the Federal government). This is not the kind of publicity the UAE needs right now.
105 Comments:
Hope that this makes it to boing boing by breakfast.
How about just kicking the guy in the nuts... and not stoning him
These are the stories that are released to the media. I don't know if this still occurs, but years ago, the authorities would carry out a sentence without due process, without informing the guy's family, let alone the media and then inform the embassy that a body needs to be collected, and then the embassy would inform the family if they could find them. If they didn't, then the body would be shipped back and buried; thats why you sometimes hear of people who "disappeared" in the Middle East after their family lost contact with them.
However, now that Dubai, and the whole UAE, seems to be in the global media spotlight, I'm sure they wouldn't want this type of publicity, as SD pointed out.
Definitely, not the kind of publicity the UAE needs right now for it seems like the dark age. Jail and deportation too is not the solution. How about being attuned to the rest of the world and just be. Go after the real crooks; real estate guys are first on my list.
I think the maid deserved more, 1 year and a 100 lash's, far too lenient!
Taunted @ 10:29
I hope that you forgot the [SARCASM] [/SARCASM] tags!
If you were being serious, I hope that you never indulge in infidelity, cause it might make you reconsider your opinion while being stoned to death.
Please.....there is no such thing as EXTREME shariah. This is the punishmen for adultery in Quran AND in the bible.
mad mad mad they are all bloody mad
On the contrary this is exactly the kind of publicity that the UAE needs if it is to become a genuine member of the civilised world; I lived in various parts of the UAE for several years and enjoyed it hugely, but never lost sight of its 'flaws'. Your blog is a huge help in bringing many stories about the UAE, both good and bad, to a wider audience.
Bill - thanks, this entry was deliberately aimed at trying to expose the story.
Fujairah wants/needs money from Dhabi and Dubai. It's trying to develop a tourism sector.
It will play ball. It has no choice.
Offtopic but here goes anyway...
Take a look at the image is it me or do they have grass growing in the desert? Wonder who is going to foot the water bill to grow all the grass around that project.
These guys must be 'Stoned' as they keep on producing unrealistic renderings of projects.
Looks like something out of a video game.
Stoning to death is not actually mentioned in the Quran, by the way. The stoning thing is in hadeeth and there are other hadeeth which indicate that the Prophet pbuh avoided stoning at all costs.
There is a hadeeth (can't find the reference, but it is well known) about a woman who came pregnant and confessed that she wanted to atone for her sin of adultery. He pbuh asked her "are you sure u committed adultery???" sevaral times and turned her away telling her to come back when she had delivered. After delivery, this woman came back and he said "Are you sure you committed adultery???" the stubborn lady still said yes. He told her to come back after 2 years when she had weaned the child. She must have been bent on expiating her sin, cuz she actually came back and the Prophet pbuh attempted to turn her away yet again. She insisted and the stoning was carried out. But the point is that Muslims are suppose to ask God for forgiveness and repent.
In another authentic hadeeth (Sahih Bukhari #24: #502) a man is concerned because he gace charity to a woman whom he later discovered to be an adulterer. The prophet's wise words were "and that given to the adulteress might make her abstain from illegal sexual intercourse."
The prophet reported to me "If any of my followers dies worshipping God, he will enter Paradise." I asked, "Even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse (Adultery) and theft?" He replied, "Even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse (Adultery) and theft." (S. Bukhari #23, Hadith #329)
A repentant person should NOT be stoned if the Shari'ah is interpreted correctly and humanistically. Unfortunately long bearded authoritarian patriarchs aren't that interested in humanism in the Shari'ah---especially when dealing with deportable residents. And many snide Western expats are only interested in lambasting anything to do with Islam.
Unfortunately long bearded authoritarian patriarchs aren't that interested in humanism in the Shari'ah
Unfortunately they tend to be the ones running the show. So you have to cut westerners a bit of slack for the image they get of Islam.
click310 - great picture! It's high time you started a blog, you find such great stuff.
The fundamental rule of discipline, whether lenient or strict:
The punishment must never be worse than the crime.
The punishment must never be worse than the crime.
THE PUNISHMENT MUST NEVER BE WORSE THAN THE CRIME.
Anonymous @ 11 June, 2006 13:04
Thanks for giving references to the 2 sayings of the Prophet (SAW) regarding rajm (stoning to death of married adulterers).
The underlying principle of these sayings vis-a-vis the harsh punishment - yes, it is pretty harsh and "barbaric" - is that this kind of punishment is handed out only when: (1) the person committing adultery is a married person; (2) if his/her crime of infidelity comes out in the open as a matter of fact. The reason why the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) was refraining from punishing the woman that came to him was because her crime had not come out in the public. Clearly, mercy takes precedence over punishment.
The problem arises when a deviant act (such as the one in question) becomes known to the public. The philosophy behind this is volumnous and cannot be covered due to paucity of time and space constraints. But, the crux of the matter is weighing the reasoning behind the harsh punishment versus the 20th/21st century's humanistic approach. As a participant here aptly put it, "THE PUNISHMENT MUST NEVER BE WORSE THAN THE CRIME". What humanist laws and Islamic disagree on is how SERIOUS this crime is in its nature and its far reaching effects.
Just wondering - has anyone ever tried reading these underlying differences in the acuteness of such crimes from the humanist/Islamic perspectives? There are a lot of details I am leaving out here, but if this thread goes towards that direction then that can of worms would have to be opened.
I respect all religions but stoning, flogging, decapitating; aren't they harsh? What are we playing here 'God Almighty'? What gives one human the right to do these things to another human? In a real court of law, a sentence is passed after due process but no form of punishment is handed out that involves any one of the above. The age of 'an eye for an eye' is long gone. We live in a civilized world people and that includes also this Part of the World.
I would suggest the wife of the adulterer gets her pick of the most handsome local hunks who would work for the court. She would sleep with one of them as a punishment for the adulterer. This way, the punishment is equal to the 'crime'.
On a serious note though, and regardless of what al-republican or other extremist Islamists may say, stoning to death is absolutely and beyond any doubt a barbaric and WRONG thing to do. Anyone who condones this punishment should think a billion times before they can even begin to justify it.
It is completely contradictory to the spirit of Islam that tells warriors not to hurt trees when in a battle. It goes against every value put into any living creature. Hell, if Islam cares so much about how animals are slaughtered (and aside from the symbolic words being said before the slaughter), then how come it fails miserably when dealing with human life? I do not believe it for one second.
You are telling me the same religion that says you have to slaughter an animal with one strike so it doesn't suffer, is the one that has throwing stones at a human being until they die? Are you really really serious? Does this even sound remotely possible to you?
No, I don't believe it. A lot of the lies attributes to the prophet in hadeeths (yeah, I don't care if it's verified by Bukhari or Abu Huraira or whoever..) these are absolute fabrications that have nothing to do with the spirit of Islam.
This is not to say that Islam does not have laws that do seem a bit harsh. Amputations, lashes, death sentences.. They are harsh, but do have their practical purposes (and we can dispute whether those apply today.. ) but the fact is, they did make some kind of sense.
Stoning to death? No sir. You are a complete lunatic in thinking that this is even remotely related to Islam. al-republican, I suggest you search in your heart first, before you come out with complete nonsense. Forget the references, forget the books.. look into your heart and tell me, do you reall, honestly, think that a sexual intercourse warrants stoning a fellow human being until they die?
If anyone answers that with a yes, I suppose the Zarqawi clan is still well and alive :(
What troubles me about corporal and capital punishment in any culture is the fact that someone is required to administer it. Which is better, to able to say, 'I'm just doing my job.' or to go for it angrily, vengefully, enthusiastically?
How do you recruit people to stone someone to death? What qualities are required? Should they be convicted murderers being allowed to apply their speciality in the service of justice? Or religious men steeped in righteousness? Or family men, doing it for their wives and children?
Do they volunteer, or is it a social responsibility, like jury duty? Is it a trade? Paid casual labour? How often might they be caled upon to perform this duty. How many times?
Is there an aptitude test?
A proficiency test?
How do they train?
Is the aim maximum efficiency or maximum suffering?
Is there a standard throwing distance, like in darts?
How close is close enough?
How many goes do they get?
Is there a standard issue stone of optimum size, weight and density. What are the relative merits of sharp and rounded stones?
Are earplugs issued?
Should they be?
Who does this job?
Can they sleep at night?
Do we want to live with them?
Doctors take an oath to do no harm, and yet I read, and perhaps it's true, that Saudi doctors are obliged to perform amputations on convicted thieves. What does it do to a human being to be obliged to kill, not in war, not to protect, or defend ,or survive, but because it's the law?
Look at what trained troops are capable of when nerve and morality break down, and discipline fails. Watch footage of policemen and soldiers clubbing, kicking and beating individuals in Europe, the US, South America,Africa, Asia, Australia. Apart from the private militias and salaried thugs of dicatorships, these are supposed the good guys, trained to protect and serve, in jobs which include only the use of 'reasonable force'.
How much more disturbing is the idea of your friendly neighbourhood licensed killer?
How can mutilation or execution be good for society? Any society?
Yup. That was a rant!
imo, the problem with this and every other 'legal' issue in the uae is that about 15% of the populace is completely and totally removed from the consequences of their actions and these 15% are the folks who should be 'leading' the rest. but instead they are walking around in some gilded anarachy while the remaining 85% shake and quiver at the thought of a parking ticket or bounced check.
I am willing to bet that this sentence would NOT be carried out.
al-republican - i knew you would comment here - but let me ask you this : when does Fujairah (or all of UAE) become a shariah state and when does it not?
By the way - does this also apply to the hooker trade in neighboring cities or the massage parlours in Fujairah itself?
So before saying it is right or wrong or coming out with pre-historic (or even islamic judgements) we should first point out the hypocrisies.
Your freindly puppet.
Shit.
Bad PR.
Stoning married man or woman who commit adultery is a well known law in Islamic Shari'a and who ever Muslim denies that then he does not know his religion the way he supposed to.
If you think this is a "barbarian" act ... then in Islam adultery is an ultimate barbarian act. If the stoning punishment has been widely applied, then we wouldn't be seeing the wide spread of adultery.
Click here to read the Islamic fatwaa about stoning. And please don't try to attack and disrespect this law of punishment cause it is an authentic law and attacking it is attacking Islam.
Fahad Al Mahmood -> You just pointed out one of the ironies in that country. Progress is praised and promoted. But it’s all PR. This particular thread can be used to block secretdubai.blogspot.com according to the Etisalat TOS per terms 11(d) clauses (2) & (3)
In addition to blocking the blog, the people posting here can be charged with some made up crime, jailed and deported.
All for what? replying to your post. Honestly I don’t care for you or your ideal that free speech should be regulated by someone’s morals, but I'd rather not get SD blocked. So enjoy your camel ride in the imaginary dubailand and we shall meet someday in another life, for the moment lets just say that you are right.
And please don't try to attack and disrespect this law of punishment cause it is an authentic law and attacking it is attacking Islam.
And that's where you're wrong, Fahady-boy, depsite what your mullahs might have brainwashed you into thinking.
Firstly, according to scholars I've spoken to, shariah law was created after the quran was written, it is an interpretation of the prophet's message and guidance, but remains open to reform and revision.
Secondly, questioning Islamic tenets is not attacking Islam. They told you that to scare you into ever challenging them. The reality is that every muslim has to make their own personal decisions and interpretations of their religion. There is no muslim "pope" or uber-vicar. All muslims are equal with equal rights and independent minds.
We doubt to reaffirm. We question to understand better. Try it - though I fear it might be too late for you.
Damn it SD go to sleep it must be late there :D
Sure it doesn’t, but what sort of publicity are you giving this topic? LOL!
You don’t like it? Go home!! Sha’ria law is only applied on Muslims, and he (the guy) should’ve known better. BTW, you know you have 7 different emirates right? Each emirates has their own FEDERAL LAWS, and if Fujairah implementing Sha’ria law, that’s GOOD for them, what does it have to do with the rest of UAE as you claim “bad publicity for the UAE.” I thought you’ve known better but I guess you don’t!
I lame, instead of coming up with you own research and topics to discuss about the UAE you dwell on information from the MEDIA, how shallow!!!!
chiCa eMaratina - oh dear, you really are a candidate for Sheikh Mo's education revolution aren't you?
1. All criminal law here is based on sharia, and it applies to everyone regardless of religion. There are instances where they may penalise muslims more harshly (alcohol) but non-muslims face "sharia" punishments just the same as muslims.
2. Each emirate doesn't have its own "federal" law, by dint of the fact that federal law refers to the overall federation, ie the UAE. Federal laws apply to all emirates.
3. It's bad publicity for the UAE because it is trying to present an open, tolerant, moderate face to the world, and stoning is not considered an appropriate punishment by any developed nation.
If we were to stone every adulterer, the earth would be one big asteroid attack.
Chapter 4 verse 16 roughly says: "But leave them alone if they regret their actions and improve themselves. God in His mercy accepts the remorseful one's remorse."
Any married, visiting politicians world leaders and royal family intending on committing adultery beware.
(On the way to the stoning)
Can I have 3 round ones, 2 small ones and a bag of gravel.
(The life of Bryan)
Cut through the crap whoever advocates stoning, beheading and blah blah blah form of punishment in the name of religion. Put yourself at the receiving end, come back with scars (emotional & physical) and then join this debate. Let us read your views then in the name of religion, deal?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sharia should either be applied fairly and across the board or else it cannot be considered relevant.
This ruling was not an example of islamic law.
Sharia, Quran, etc. When are we as human beings going to learn to move on? We still use 5000 year old doctrines to justify our means?What rubbish. The guy had an affair, so that's between him and his wife. He did not go and rape anyone did he? Its just sex,dammit, a human need and I dont think any consenting adult needs to punished. This is bullshit.
Lots of things being said, albeit mostly digressions from what I had asked. Unfortunately, law does not account for emotions and rants in its formulation or execution (excuse the unintended pun!).
To SD and everyone else:
1- What is your basis upon which you want to formulate laws of hudood (punishments)? Is it the human brain (man-made laws)? Legislation of laws through 2/3rds majority in an elected parliament (which is again man-made laws)? Or is it just simply your desires that makes you formulate laws (again man-made)? So you see, the Western system, ever since the separation of State and Religion, is all about formulating laws as per how HUMANS decide for OTHER HUMANS. So who is trying to play God here exactly? What is not barbaric about life imprisonment?
2- Common, SD, you should know better about the demographics of the UAE. I wonder if any of you have ever even heard (let alone tried to understand) the national anthem of this country? Fujairah is governed by a different family, with different sets of laws and different modus operandi. This is not your normal confederation of states as per the West! I feel sorry for those 2 french ladies who were out to improve the image of Dubai (or was it the ENTIRE UAE?). Now they have to explain to the Europeans why Fujairah is different to Dubai and how sharee'ah does not apply in Dubai.
3- It is quite one thing to QUESTION a belief system and quite another to ATTACK it. I hope you educated lot can decipher that much. A lot of the people who have contributed here have actually questioned, which is completely acceptable. But, the balance is pretty delicate; you start throwing insults, abuses, mocks and the discussion soon digresses to petty mud-slinging and attacking.
4- No, SD, the Sharee'ah was NOT written down afterwards. Whoever has told you this is COMPLETELY confused. Can you kindly name us the scholars whom you have consulted so that we may verify? The Qur'an is the Sharee'ah and the Sharee'ah is the Qur'an - it is that simple!
5- Why do you cry foul over bad publicity when your blogs are all about projecting the weird things going on in the "sandlands" and giving it just that - BAD PUBLICITY? I find this a little amusing, frankly. Not that I mind what you are doing.
To Shafique:
You bring a lot of interesting points. If I were to put everything you said in a nutshell then I would paste this section of your's: "The argument that the Sunnah (practice) of the Prophet condoned stoning is moot - as explained above. Ask any scholar/Imam/Mullah to cite one instance of a stoning to death of a non-Jew after the verse of the Quran was revealed... if they can do so, then they have a theological leg to stand on..if they cannot then they have to explain to all thinking Mulsims why they think they know better than God and His prophet."
So if we are able to show you such evidences, should I assume you will be convinced? Or then will your "nafs" kick in?
To the friendly puppet:
Body massage parlors are equivalent to illegal sexual intercourse by married adulterers?
Lastly, why hasn't ANYONE commented on my question if the raison d'etre behind this law has been studied? It is clearly not a man-made law. What makes you all think that you are better people than those in the 16th century? Or back in the days of Noah? I believe this point is moot. Please make it clear what you think is a better punishment for such instances and HOW you go about coming to this conclusion.
The punishment for adultery is a
hundred lashes.
According to Shariah, it takes 4 witnesses to see the event of adultery, which makes this only realistic in cases of people having sex in public.
As for harsh punishments: Yes punishment in Islam may seem harsh but they point IS, that you should not commit adultery in the first place. These laws are there to make people NOT do the sins.
However, stoning is in the Bible for ex. in Deuteronomy 22:13-29.
shafique,
I don't know where you're from or where you were educated.. but I have to say, you are one of the few (very few) that seem to have had a real education, which allows you to think for yourself.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I only wish more so-called Muslims (like our friend al-republican here) would learn to digest the information instead of spitting it back at people without thinking about it.
Disgusted (?) Muslim:
Thanks for doing all, but accusing me of having apostated from Islam! If you find my views hard to digest then don't punish yourself on my account and drop the "disgusted" label. You are a Muslim, be proud of it! Humans will forever disagree on all sorts of things. Why should you be disgusted or apologetic about my views and vice versa?
I am only discussing this here to defend a law, which I have studied through religious scholars as the unadulterated (oops, another unintended pun!) Word of God. The Fujairah case is shrouded in a litle bit of obscurity. I don't know much of the case and neither do any of us. The purpose of this exchange is to understand laws (hopefully). For example, the adulterating man's position is precarious indeed if he is not able to afford his wife and children to live with him. Clearly, the law would make some sort of exception. But, had this offending man's wife been sleeping with another man, God forbid, forget the law, this person himself would have gone back to his wife and killed her! And then you would still be a "further disgusted" Muslim :)
The Sharee'ah is a very simple thing to understand. For person's like the accused man, the Sharee'ah allows a nik'ah (marriage) wherein he can have a wife in Fujairah aside from his other wife (wherever she is) and not be financially bound to her. It's called nik'ah misyar. Why couldn't this man have taken that route with this girl or any other girl for that matter? Again, we dont have complete details of the affair. I believe the courts in Fujairah would have taken all things into account before issuing the verdict. So dear brother, you have a very valid point when you say why cant people digest information? You feed someone shit and then expect him/her to digest it? Our Muslims these days dont even know the laws of God in their entirety!
Had it not been for Miss SD I dont think we Muslims would have EVER bothered to read about the Sharee'ah. Now we all can google about nik'ah misyar :P
Happy googling!
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Literally.
If this "law" is interpreted literally, I can guarantee you a minimum of 30% of locals (probably 50% of us men) would be stoned to death.
Enjoy the results of your bullshit law, Fujairah.
Annoyed local:
You seem to subscribe to the laws of Jesus (AS) (after all, to christians, Jesus is LORD incarnate so that statement would constitute a law)? Is that so? If that is the case, well then you have the freedom to follow your laws. Let us stick to ours, deal?
Just wondering, where do you get your percentages and data from? Just random rant?
I have not even started talking of the reasons behind this very harsh punishment, but you already allude to how contagious this evil of illegal sexual intercourse is! It spreads like wildfire and pretty soon destroys the ethics and morals of a society. Thanks for your comment, Sir. I think it just helped our cause!
5- Why do you cry foul over bad publicity when your blogs are all about projecting the weird things going on in the "sandlands" and giving it just that - BAD PUBLICITY? I find this a little amusing, frankly. Not that I mind what you are doing.
I'm not crying foul over bad publicity - just the stupidity of attracting it. You're right - I deliberately blogged this to increase the publicity in the hope that it would add to the pressure getting the sentence commuted.
I remember the last stoning in the UAE (that I know of anyway). It was in Al Ain. It stirred the country, even way back then. Today it would cause quite a commotion I believe. I also fear that bringing publicity to this may encourage the courts to carry out the sentence, since they are not so hot on forgiveness and might see it as 'losing face'.
Whatever they do decide to do, I really do not feel this is a topic for non-muslims to begin to understand. If the country is progressing, then does this mean that they should abandon all values?
On the other hand, if they were to round up all of those committing adultery, we might get back the Dubai that we once loved.
cq, If you rounded up all those commiting adultery, the place would be dead, with a handfull of locals, very few westerners and an army of blue overalled workers, never mind anything else.
But this isn't really about adultery, it's more to do with punishment v crime, and I've never read so much claptrap in all my life.
Not to mention the huge negative impact this would have on the Global view of the sandlands, it won't happen, just like crew night is the biggest knocking shop on the planet, it wont, believe me.
BTW, I'm surprised that Etisalat haven't banned you again secret!
I deliberately blogged this to increase the publicity in the hope that it would add to the pressure getting the sentence commuted.
you need to stop saving the world. we can all live without you.
So you see, the Western system, ever since the separation of State and Religion, is all about formulating laws as per how HUMANS decide for OTHER HUMANS. So who is trying to play God here exactly?
Nobody. Man making laws governing man is an example of man playing at being man. God doesn't come into it. He doesn't feature at all.
It is quite one thing to QUESTION a belief system and quite another to ATTACK it.
Quite. And in the case of stoning somebody to death in the name of a religious belief, it is perfectly reasonable to do the latter.
[Y]ou already allude to how contagious this evil of illegal sexual intercourse is! It spreads like wildfire and pretty soon destroys the ethics and morals of a society.
Indeed. We need to stone people to death in order to avoid destroying the ethics and morals of society.
Poeple who cannot understand the importance of marriage in life , society and relegion should not be passing comments on the Laws that were made by God.
Erm, as far as I know, the concept of marriage predates Islam, Judaism, and Christianity by several centuries.
God did not make these laws, he simply swiped them from someone else in order to get his homework in on time.
ssosw - you talk about how important marriage is in Islam, yet there is this repellant concept of a "temporary" marriage. How is that justifiable? So sex should be in marriage, but it's ok if you get a piece of paper so you can have sex with a random person for just 24 hours. It's hypocritical and sick.
And don't play the "gay marriage" card. People that use that are ignorant: they've never known (or bothered to get to know) any gay people. God I wish scientists would hurry up and identify some physical proof of "gayness" - if only to stick it in the face of you ignorant, bigoted, hate-filled zealots.
Ray H - when you're stuck in jail facing a death sentence you would pray for every mouse that squeaked on your behalf. I don't believe for one second that this blog could influence a court decision. But if it adds to the general pressure, then it's done something.
And if something I did helped saved one life, then my life has at least meant something outside the general, apathetic selfishness of my existence. What does your life mean, Ray H? What's the point of you?
Tradition?
Enough with tradition.
I don't get this insipid embracing of "cultural relativism." For example -- in certain parts of the world women are regularly subjected to practices such as circumcision. To me, this is not some inviolate cultural practice that celebrates a tradition -- it is forced mutilation, plain and simple. So the idea that the state -- any state -- has the authority to regulate who someone chooses to sleep with is downright medieval.
THIS is the response you don't want to hear by the way, the response to the question that Muslim Arabs consistently ask Westerners: "why do you hate us so much?"
I would argue that most citizens of the west don't hate you, but they absolutely despise and reject this region's backwards-ass, 7th century definition of civil society.
It's time for you to go through your own version of the enlightenment. It's time for you to use the traditions of your faith to establish a society that provides equal and fair justice under the law FOR EVERYONE.
You want your citizens to live in peace and prosperity? You want a modern economy? You want to join the WTO? You want the rest of the world to view you as an equal and valued member in the family of nations?
Then step up.
SD-
Indeed, if you save a life, you have saved all of humanity. I just hope you are doing it without sinister intentions. Because it is the intentions that God will judge you and me on.
You seem to espouse gay marriages and think it is perfectly normal? SD, be truthful to yourself! There is nothing "genetic" in being gay! If a homosexual man "marries" another homosexual man, can they have children? How are their genes going to replicate then, SD? If homosexuality has anything "genetic" then it should have been wiped out by now because people of the same sex cannot reproduce and add to the gene pool! This is the problem with humanist laws - absolutely no limits to how silly and obscene it can get! Why do you even need scientific proof for something you have already believed is the truth and the right thing to do? Why not looking for scientific proof for beastiality?
Tim Newman-
Indeed marriage is the oldest institution in human history. Guidelines and laws were set for this institution before you think. God existed before any man or woman set foot on the face of this Earth. If you dont believe in God, tough luck! Why even participate in this discussion then? Tell me, people, if the institution of marriage doesn't warrant protection and laws then why dont you all marry your siblings or parents? Who set these rules? Who says its wrong to marry one's sister or father? Who made these guidelines?? Please lets not reduce this to primary school talk!
Finally, to SD's point on temporary marriage. This is related to Timmy's point on the institution of marriage being an old one. Additions were made to this institution, but anything that was against natural laws has automatically been trashed in the dustbin of history. The nation of Lot tried to legalize sodomy and accept gay marriages; it got trashed out. Same concept applies to Temporary Marriage (mut'ah). It was a tradition amongst Arabs to temporarily marry women for even a single night (as you pointed out). This practice was banned by the Prophet (SAW) and made HARAM. This was not the only type of marriage that might make you cringe. There were many others. All of those unnatural things that had been introduced (pretty much how Westerners these days want to legalize gay marriages) in time and uprooted by the Prophet's of God who came to spread the message of God and enforce His Laws on humanity.
I suggest you people try to hit the root of your confusion - God! Find out about Him, His Ways, His Scripture and then things will make sense to you!
Al-rep, if you want to think of it as a sickness or disorder, fine. Consider it like left-handedness, or myopia, or albinism - all things that Nature perhaps doesn't "intend" in the "perfect" being, but things that happen all the time and are utterly natural for the people they affect.
Then go and meet some gay people. Seriously. Because I'm not going to accept a single one of your points until you've met and interacted with gay people. When I was a lot younger, I used to think like you. I used to suppose that it was kind of "fake" or "wrong" and that it wasn't natural. Now, having met people that are so obviously, physically gay they couldn't change it any more than I could make my hair grow purple, I have a very different view.
And no thousand year old text from any religion from times when they espouses slavery and female oppression and bizarre taboos on certain foods are going to influence me. Write me off as a lost cause if you like: I will always trust my conscience over some ancient book.
Whatever the Qur'an may say, or Sahihs Bukhari and Muslim, or Qiyaas (analogy, another source of Sharia'), or Ijma'(consensus, ditto), let's do a spot ot comparative religion.
When, in 1st century Palestine, Jesus (May His Peace Be Upon Us) intervened to prevent a woman taken in adultery from being stoned to death, he said the the Pharisees (the "beared patriarchs" of their day), "Let he who is without sin among you, let him first a stone"; they dropped their stones and went away, possibly because they thought Jeus had something on them. To the woman he said, "Go, and sin no more".
Readers can decide which system is the most merciful: the humanistic, the Islamic, or the Christian.
i, bobo-
We don't want your "enlightenment" and all that lala talk of economic prosperity. What are you going to do? Send your troops in to make us like yourselves? Bomb us? Carry out large-scale massacres in the hope that you can scare us to becoming like yourselves? Maybe that is a good idea!
Unfortunately, this kind of hate is not new to us. Your kind have tried such coercive methods before and are busy doing it again in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc. We have survived your onslaught before and with the help of God will repel you again :)
Anonymous @ 12 June, 2006 15:32
Do you mind explaining to us why the merciful religion you talk of had to so mercilessly slaughter Jesus (may peace be upon him)?? Where was the Mercy then? Took a break like the Lord did on a Sunday? Please don't quote things out of context; the story you talk of is that of a prostitute. Her sin was not related to her breaking the bond of marriage for which there is the BIBLICAL punishment of stoning to death. Why then did Jesus not abolish the practice of stoning, if I may ask? Clearly, Jesus (AS) wasn't as confused as you about the law versus the manipulation of it by the Jews!
SecretDubai-
Are you confused between gays and hermaphrodites? The former have no biological faults whereas the latter do.
Ooooh I almost missed this one: from Anonymous @ 12 June, 2006 15:32
"When, in 1st century Palestine... ". You mean the same PALESTINE that your zionists taught you needs to be eliminated and a Jewish state established on it? And that to achieve this "promise of God" you can main, destroy, rape, loot and indiscriminately kill as per the teachings of you religion? Let's not forget that your job is still in progress! The mercy also teaches you that this mindless destruction needs to go on further into Iraq and Egypt so that you may reclaim all of the "promised land". No wonder Israel refuses to declare its borders!
Please save yourself the embarassment!
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Al Republican (Guard?):
Jesus (May His Peace Be Upon Us) was put to death by the Roman authorities, NOT by "the merciful religion of which [I] talk", whatever that is.
The woman in question was clearly "taken in adultery", and was not a prostitute (John 8:3-4).
For a Christian "Man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law" (Romans 3:28)
Regarding "you Zionists" I am not a Zionist but a Christian, like many of the West Bank Arabs who currently suffer under the occupation.
Must dash now, I'm of to Church now to celebrate the Eucharist. . . .
Ugh.. people are always ready to interpret things that wrong way. My alias 'Disgusted Muslim' is meant to say I am a Muslim who is disgusted by the actions of those who claim to be Muslims.
al-republican, you are an extremist.. and the fact that you are free to interact with society scares me. I think your thoughts are a threat to society -- I just don't think you should be stoned to death for it. In fact, I don't think I want to harm you in any way, shape or form.
I am disgusted by the so-called Muslims who advocate killing fellow human being for engaging in concensual adult sexual relation.
SD, there are always scholars who will find loopholes to satisfy their sexual appetite without having to sound sinister. How do you think the girl who gets a piece of paper that says she can have sex with someone for the next 24 hours feel about it? What kind of person is she? How about the one who would sleep with someone because she's in love (or _likes_ the person).
Misyar marriage? You have gotta be kidding me! Next you will be telling me about "Zawaj al Mut3a" (although surely you are a Sunni extremist, not a Shi'ite one).
It's going to be another couple hundred years before we will be able to throw those archaic, man-made laws that are claimed to be divine by the extremists.
al-republican, I'm sure you wish the Taliban were still in power, they surely would have a consultant position for you.
Pure disgust.
Well revel in your disgust :)
I bet you want me turned in to Gitmo Bay, dont you? :P
What's wrong with nik'ah misyar? That is if you even knew what it was prior to this? Why are you scared of me? :P
SD said:
And if something I did helped saved one life, then my life has at least meant something outside the general, apathetic selfishness of my existence. What does your life mean, Ray H? What's the point of you?
12 June, 2006 14:55
SD, I like this response. You keep up the good work. If I had the chance to do something like this; make a difference I would do it without any bias. This is not about religion, its about hurting another human being in the friggin name of religion. Its very easy to sit here and debate, argue, justify etc. Say, what, just have yourself at the receiving end and you'll know how it feels. I haven't but I can feel, that's what differentiates me against those that advocate stoning, lashes, beheading, etc.
Can we all cut out the hypocrisy of hating beheading, stoning blah blah? You all are crying over here about something you have nothing to do with! Why not we speak of the beheading and belimbing (if you will) of the lovely old West that is carrying out it's atrocities in the name of democracy, oil, religion, freedom and everything under the sun?
Are you teaching us what is barbaric and what is not when your governments (arent you guys damn proud of your bloody rights to elect your leaders?) are busy obliterating innocent Muslims to pieces? Snatching their homes and wealth from them and leaving no stone unturned in humiliating what is left of them? And our dear old "disgusted Muslim" is disgusted about a verdict in Fujairah!? What else disgusts you, Sir? And you are scared of me? Rest assured, disgusted soul, I wont be blasting your house and snatching your wealth leaving you in "shock and awe"!
Did Abu Ghuraib disgust you, disgusted soul? No, I bet blowing up the bamiyan statues disgusted you more, didnt it? What else... if you mother decides to share her love with some man other than your father, that certainly wont disgust you because you think 2 adults can have consensual sex, who cares if they are married or what other gibberish? But, a pious lady spending the night in prayers will disgust you because she could have spend that night sharing her love with a perverted, oops, disgusted soul like yours?
How's that for rant? :P
Al-Republican; Let us leave Abu-Ghuraib for another time. Deal with 'the here now' instead of going across the border into Iraq.
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Oh really Anonymous? How about you leave Taliban and all that nonsensical banter of yours and try practising what you preach first? You people are sitting here and issuing me takfeer and labeling me with your hate filled arrogance and you have the gall to tell me to stick to the topic?
Couldn't handle the heat, could you? What a bloody farce!
al-republican, you are your typical extremist. No, a 'pious' lady does not disgust me. I have friends who pray 5 times a day and those who are proud to be atheists. I have straight friends and gay ones. I don't have a problem with anyone, as long as they don't try to turn me into them.
I have a problem with you because you claim to know what you don't. I have a problem with you because you don't think with your heart, but rather recite what you have been taught. I am sorry that your education has been so poor that you were only allowed to memorize and not understand.
I have a problem with any one, who thinks that torturing any living creature is acceptable. If Islam permits this, I indeed, want no part of it. Next I'll have your bearded mullahs running after me, for apostasy.
Thanks for your ludicrous latest post, disgusted soul.
One question: what made you quote the word pious? What you think it doesn't exist?
You are coming out of your shell faster than I had imagined! Guess what, Sir, apologetics lamers like yourself are a big part of the problem of Muslims and our decadence. Try to bloody do something for a change rather than sitting on your buttocks and doing perverted stuff. What a bloody waste of time and effort!
I really don't get it. Stoning is inhumane, just like burning witches at the stake.
No, I put it in between quotes because your definition of it would differ from mine, al-repubTaliban
I agree with "Insipid Chagrin's" post that discussions should be focused on the specific issue at hand. The aggregate situation in this part of the world can only be solved one individual point at a time.
With regard to the point of "al-republican" about enlightenment, please note I wrote "your version of the enlightenment."
I'm not saying you should be forced to accept ideals from an alien culture, I'm saying you should embrace a commitment to some very basic precepts, first and foremost the idea of universal human suffrage.
Be who you want to be. Live how you want to live. But don't try to impose your your way of life on others.
Because even though your comment about Iraq was not germane to this specific issue, what you were doing is EXACTLY the same thing that you claim the Americans are doing to you.
What's funny about this is that you're the same as George Bush. You want what you want and you don't particularly care how it effects other people.
lmao! my life has a meaning and i do not need to tell you about it. But i do not go around showing off to others that OH I AM HERE TO CHANGE THE WORLD.
Al Republican and the rest of the gay-bashers: Enlighten yourselves.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,,1796185,00.html
rummyjohn (and everybody else, pretty much):
Your arguments are very valid. I agree with them 100%. Unfortunately, if I look at it from my perspective, you are 50% there. I believe in human compassion and the superiority of the human intellect and reasoning. But you do not agree that human intellect and reasoning has a LIMIT; it always has and always will. Yes, it can grow, but it will forever remain LIMITED. It is only God Almighty whose Knowledge and Power is Absolute and Complete. He is the Irresistable! Therefore, human reasoning is affected by emotions, circumstances, jealousy, greed, perversion etc. It is this reason alone that God's Laws are perfect. The debate and philosophy is huge, please try to read up on it some time. We may think God to be barbaric for legislating that a person be stoned to death or for even creating a Hell where people will burn in Eternity for their evil deeds and mischief. This is God's wisdom; it cannot be explained and it certainly cannot be understood. You want to question His Wisdom, you are free to do so. But, like I said, there is quite a difference between questioning and attacking. God does open His Wisdom to many; you only have to try and tread the path of spirituality. I assure you, you will see things that you would normally not see.
Present day human beings are too engaged in the World and have forgotten the spiritual side of life. It is here where all the answers lie, if only you are willing to give up the attraction of this World.
Sorry, Sir, but even with all these years of intellectual maturing, Man continues to be a beast that is dictated by his apparantly inherent nature to do evil. Goodness is inherent in mankind as well, but evil comes with a lot of attractions and you are more likely to follow bad than good. Look at the wars and destruction that the 'intellectually mature' have carried out in the past 80 years! Are you proud to be a human of this century? World War I, World War II, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam to very new examples of human evil of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Excuse me, Sir i,bobo? What human suffrage do you talk of? You say, "I'm saying you should embrace a commitment to some very basic precepts, first and foremost the idea of universal human suffrage... Be who you want to be. Live how you want to live. But don't try to impose your your way of life on others."
Try telling this to those human beings who are the ones spreading the human suffrage in the World today. No, it is not the Taliban, and not the mullahs. It is your intellectually mature Westerners who think they can legislate laws better than God and can be fairer than God. Look at the geo-political problems around you today: where is the justice that your intellectually mature human beings have promised you? Just look at the issue of Israel and Palestine! Clearly, it is not the principles of Justness that is being followed, but that of greed, prejudice, bias, hate, you name it!
Sorry, Sirs, I am happy following the Judgement of God and it is God Alone who can give "Infinite Justice" no matter how much the Americans (intellectually superior?) claim they can do so.
Tell me, people, if the institution of marriage doesn't warrant protection and laws then why dont you all marry your siblings or parents?
This may come as a surprise to you, but the reason I have not married my sister or mum is not because the law says I can't. There are other reasons, the main one being that I really don't want to marry a family member. I'd rather marry a non-relative of my own choosing. If only all others had such freedom, eh?
ssosw
Is it that stoning was not a punishment decreed by Allah(SWT)
To answer your question, I feel that it is No. I am a Musli, I have read the Quran, where 100 lashes is decreed for adultery, and not stoning
And Allah knows best
MM
"where is the justice that your intellectually mature human beings have promised you?"
Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
i,bobo,
Nice try. How much of this has been implemented? And you want an example of human beings are so good with their intellects that they even find loopholes in the entire human rights laws? We could start with the human rights deprivation of Guantanamo Bay prisoners. "Enemy combatants"? Then you have those marriage laws that is used by mischevious souls that point out how those laws do not specify gender and hence male can marry male.
Is this the human law that you are so proud of? Laws that you can manipulate to your likings and if you have power there is not a damn thing anyone can do if you even trash them? The whole edifice of Divine Law being better law rests on this principle of this law being UNCHANGEABLE. The text of the Qur'an is preserved. It has been over 1400+ years and there is not a single letter in this text that has been changed from the original text. Divine Intervention? I leave that to you to decide. You know, your generation is not the first generation that is trying to change the laws of God. The Jews succeeded in doing that eons ago and the Christians did so too some time back - with a lot of success. Then, came the onslaught on the final Law passed by God Almighty in the Qur'an. People who wanted to change the text and interpret it in ways that pleases their desires started as long as 1000 years ago. The practice continues even now. Yet, no one has been able to change these laws and change how it has been understood by the Muslims. The promise is there in the Qur'an - God Himself will protect the final Law (it comes in a verse in the Qur'an) - and the challenge is there for you all.
Finally, Tim, I didnt get your point? What I can tell you of the philosophy behind Islamic Law is this: It is God who decided what constitutes right and what constitutes wrong; what is good and what is evil; what is allowed and what is prohibited. It is His vectors that we, His subjects, follow. Had He decreed lying to be a good thing, today the truth would be evil (I bet the neo-cons would love that). He in His Infinite Wisdom has set down the dietary laws; marriage rights; human rights; economic guidelines etc. It is with these principles in mind that His subjects mould their lives. Ofcourse, God has given human beings FREEDOM OF CHOICE and therefore you can choose to follow your own desires and laws and even reject God.
Animals dont have intellect; Angels don't have the freedom to make choices; plants cannot distinguish between right and wrong. All these qualities are in mankind alone. And it is for this reason that God has created Heaven and Hell. He will not throw animals, angels and trees in Hell because they are not accountable for their deeds. We humans on the other hand have REASON and INTELLECT. This puts a huge burden on us of RESPONSIBILITY to use it wisely or else face the consequences both in the material world and in the Hereafter. So dont take God's gift of freedom to make choices, intellect and reason for granted. These are the qualities of man gifted by God that he has become arrogant and proud of. So much so that he has started challenging the same God that gave him this gift! The consequences are grave and real. Please understand that. The rest is up to you, and God Alone is the source of Strength and Guidance.
He in His Infinite Wisdom has set down the dietary laws; marriage rights; human rights; economic guidelines etc.
Economic guidelines?!!! Infinite wisdom? Ha! If that were true, Afghanistan under the Taliban would have been an economic power house! As it was, it was an economic basket case which ranked at the very foot of any table of economic ranking you care to consult. And the economic model on which ultra-Islamic Saudi Arabia has adopted consists of no more than turning on an oil spigot and flogging what comes out. Even the Soviets performed better economically than this lot.
Economic guidelines?!!! Infinite wisdom? Ha! If that were true, Afghanistan under the Taliban would have been an economic power house
So did anyone here claim that Taliban followed true Islamic laws in running the country?? There is no country which comes close to following Islamic laws. Saudi Arabia in fact has a lot of unislamic laws veiled as "Sharia"
MM
History has shown us time and time again, that trying to regulate a society's "morality" is always, always, ALWAYS a DISASTER.
Allah knows best. Not you.
How dare any human take Allah's role in deciding who to punish. Allah will deal with them (both the criminal and the punisher) in the afterlife as He sees fit.
Crazy arabs.....
More proof that they are not in step with the rest of the modern world.
You're right. The prophet(PBUH) did great things, and raised the standard of living for Arabia. I'm with you.
However, I sincerely doubt that the methods he used were the same arbitrary, ludicrous methods espoused by the "religious police" (aka muttawa3a). Do you really thing that Muhammad (saws) raised the standards and encouraged people to come to Islam by saying "You can stone adulterers"? I don't think so.
It is THAT kind of moral regulation that never works, and I am completely against it.
Tim Newman-
It's funny you judge by examples based on little understanding. The actual economics of Islam can be found better in the earlier part of Islamic history. A lot of those rules if applied today would get us out of our rut. I would suggest you read Mufti Taqi Uthmani's (SD quoted him one in one of her blogs) book on Islamic Economics to have a more contemporary understanding of how this system can be applied today.
Also, your judgement rests on Western vectors. The Islamic economic system is not about becoming a "powerhouse" with huge amounts of foreign reserves; far from it! It's principles are mainly derived from justice, equality, compassion etc. There is a reason for Interest being prohibited in Islam. 20th/21st century economics has proved beyond doubt that Interest-based economies have only resulted in the rich becoming richer and the poor poorer. While the West loves this capitalistic system, Islam totally shuns this system. Islam teaches equal distribution of wealth. It also has very different laws to ownership and tax regulations. In a nushell, in Islamic governance, the poor man comes first. There is a lot of details on this. Please try to understand or READ the system before you go around judging it based on peripheral occurences that are bound by constraints.
The Taliban, if you really want to talk about them, had a lot of rigidness. I personally disagree with a lot of their policies. But, I understand why they had them owing to the dynamics of that part of the World. You cannot simply expect everyone to become like you; that is naive at best and ludicrous at worst! Afghanistan has for years been dependant on agriculture as it's main source of income. And it is very restricted in its agriculture as well. Their whole economy has been based on poppy for centuries. The Taliban did you the favor of eradicating poppy cultivation, which has been the lifeline of millions of Afghanis for YEARS. They were developing (through the help of some foreign countries like Sweden) expertise for growing other crops. This is where the US and the West in general absolutely stink of hypocrisy. Do you have any idea what was your role in this? Zero!
When the Taliban banned education in 1997, they banned it BOTH for girls AND for boys! But did your media ever tell you about the banning of education for boys? Obviously, they want to show you Westerners an image of Muslims where they are oppressive towards their womenfolk so that you can lead a "crusade" and "free" our women.
Did your media EVER tell you why the Taliban banned education for BOTH girls and boys? Well I will do you the favor and get you out of your slumber: It is because Afghanistan was in the midst of a TERRIBLE civil war. Warring warlords were on a rampage and houses were not safe let alone schools! In one incident in 1996, one of the warlords, General Rashid Dostum (who is America's buddy) massacred children in an entire school killing 200 children after raping young boys and girls! I can tell you of many more incidents.
It was only in 1999, when the Taliban had a strong writ over most parts of Aghanistan (90%) did they lift the ban on BOYS ONLY. After a year of relative calm, the Taliban then started gradually opening up schools for GIRLS in 2000. Oops, your media NEVER told you any of this did they? I am still in contact with many social workers from Italy, Sweden and Norway who played a BIG role in helping the Taliban set up schools for girls in 2000. Then we all know what happened in 2001.
Why, bloody, the Americans needed a big ass favor from the Taliban in the year 2000, Timmy. They wanted UNICOL and Halliburton to win a gas and oil pipeline deal worth millions of dollars against an Argentinian firm. This would lead up to tapping a multi-billion dollar industry into the central Asian region, which is also a strategic location for the powers-that-be. America was so much in appeasement mode that Syed Rehmatullah (a Taliban foreign office spokesman) was invited to America as a SPECIAL guest and he had COMPLETE access to all the states to go and clear misconceptions about the Taliban. But, as soon as Mullah Umar decided to give the oil and gas pipeline deal to the Argentinian firm, America started its dirty game being the intellectually mature race that they claim to be!
There is a whole lot more to the kind of shit that builds up this whole package of hate towards your nation. But, from the examples above, you will see how it is hard for any nation to adopt a system other than the prevailing one set up firmly by the Jews. Please try to read your own history and see how America had its own "bank wars" and how the Jews were able to grab America by the throat after having set up the Bank of England (which is NOT a federal reserve as in the common belief). In fact, America's own Federal Reserves are not "federal" at all! Citibank is in possession of the majority of what is known as the "American Federal Reserves".
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kiss o'mack:
People came into Islam because its system of Justice and equality. Stoning to death is just one part of the entire package. If you look at Islam in its entirety, all you will be able to find (literally) are 10 things that would be hard to digest. Unfortunately, for hate mongers and islamophobics, that is all that is required to create up hysteria and even charge up Muslims against the Islamic System of Governance.
The stoning to death punishment is indeed harsh and also very barbaric. Who ever denied that? The point is, to convict a person of such a punishment requires proof that borders on the impossible. Also, this entire system of punishment is preceeded by the general teaching of Mercy taking precedence over punishment. You will find handful of incidents of stoning to death because: (1) Islamic societies had the proper "tazkiya" (spiritual cleansing) and did not indulge in such crimes; (2) It is very hard to convict a person to this sentence; (3) Mercy takes precedence over retribution. In the modern context, it is very hard to hand out these punishments islamically because we do not possess the criteria for it. The chopping off of hands and stoning to death can not be carried out unless the Islamic lands are completely in harmony and spiritually aligned. It would be ludicrous to chop off people's hands if the country was not economically settled and government was responsible for the well-being of each and every individual's daily bread.
Similarly, there is no point in stoning someone to death when the entire ummah is need of spiritual cleansing and perversion is so rampant! This is exactly why Jesus (AS) exclaimed "Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone". This doctrine holds true even now.
You will know very well of how during the second Caliph's - , Umar ibn al-Khattab (RA) - tenure there was a famine in many parts of Muslims lands. This led to an increase in stealings and crime and Sayyiduna Umar (RA) held the law of chopping off of hands in abeyance. Clearly, the law could not be applied at the time owing to the situation. Please note how I use the Jurisprudic term of "holding in abeyance" and not HARAM. The law of chopping off of hands is from Allah (SWT). It has it's own criteria and conditions. If those precedents are not met, the law cannot be applied, but it cannot also be BANNED (as our Western friends want us to) because the Word of God has to stand!
So let's not follow our whims or pressure from people who do not subscribe to living their lives according to God's Will. Please remember that the word "Muslim" translates to "a person who submits/surrenders (his/her will to the Will of God)". Remember the injunction of the Qur'an when it commands Muslims, "udkhulu fis-silmi Kaaffah" (Enter Islam COMPLETELY). Do not try to change the laws of God just because you dont agree to it or find it harsh. That is NOT submitting to the Will of Allah.
People came into Islam because its system of Justice and equality. Stoning to death is just one part of the entire package.
This is the stuff of a Monty Python sketch. I've never seen satire like it!
Was that the only thing you had an answer to? :P
Shafique-
In sha Allah, sharing information is a duty. You probably should read Ahmad Rashid's best selling book titled "Taliban".
Also, I disagree with the blowing up of the Bamiyan Statues, too. I met Syed Rehmatullah when he came to my university in 2000. Someone from the audience asked him this question and he gave a reply that really hushed up everybody! He told us how the majority of the international aid that was coming to Afghanistan was used by the UN and others to reconstruct the Buddha statues(he quoted the exact figure, which was somewhere in the order of couple of hundred million dollars). He told us how the Taliban regime was infuriated with how 200 million dollars was going into the reconstruction of the Buddha statues when this money was urgently required to them for building infrastructure and providing basic amenities. He pointed out how the Taliban were very annoyed why the UN was not putting this money into power distribution and generation.
Hence, the edict followed to blow up the statues, so if the statues dont exist, there would be no need to reconstruct it and the money could be better utilized. Obviously, the Taliban did hurt the religious sentiments of Buddhists. I leave the final judgement to you.
al rebublican: yawn.
al republican, you need some serious man-love. C'mere you big manly man.
Let's get all Brokeback Mountain together.
al republican
dont u get it man? Your views are always one sided islamic based - why should anyone care about a point of view which is about your religion alone?
I am a muslim too but when debating i dont just give my religious sentimental view - because it is MY religion - not everyone elses.
And in response to your earlier comment - yes massage parlors (=sex parlors) are the same as adultery for married men and others. That one is quite obvious, what do you want me to explain further about what goes on in Fujairah massage parlors?
Well if you insiste here goes:
It is hypocritical to give around fatwas on zinna when the same city has massage parlors.
There - a little easier?
Actually i shouldnt waste my time - everything you support is bad PR for muslims anyways.
And I guess SD's blogs are good PR? By the way, did you even TRY to read my posts? I clearly said that there is NO point carrying out punishments when the vice is not being tackled!
And, no, I dont know what goes on in massage parlors? Never been to one, so I dont know.
Cheers!
al,
forget it bro - you are Bad PR for muslims - you just like to draw controversy and thrive in the attention you get with it. This blog is an example of that. If what im saying wasnt true then you would have been wiser and not been present in every other post here.
Its because of muslims like you - the shock mullas, that islam keeps getting in trouble.
Media and politicians draw on more famous samples like you (which I am sure you have ambitions of being one) to ridicule islam. The irony is that you guys get a voice on the same media that you criticise and use for your agendas/ platforms. Eg: You just criticized SD's blog but your the #1 fan of it.
anonymous-
You are entitled to your opinion, but I dont think I agree with your assessment. Yes, I do read these blogs regularly, but I only comment when I think I can add something useful.
If I criticize the bias in media, how do you stretch this criticism to me abhoring media tools such as TV, internet etc? That is absolutely absurd and is a common trait in apologetic people like yourself. Just to re-iterate it and make it easier for you to understand: we dont hate the medium, but the propoganda spread against Muslim by these mediums. You can find such hate material in books as well, so now you want me to stop reading as well? What nonsense! I bet you probably think that Muslims shouldn't fight with guns because "kaafirs invented guns and you should fight with swords" types! What a joke!
It is imperative for every Muslim with even an ounce of shame to defend his/her faith in the midst of adversaries. If you don't want to defend your faith and be apologetic about it then all power to you. I dont have a problem with that, but apparantly you have a big problem with anyone who thinks otherwise. Grow up!
I may sound irritating to you and many others, but I am sure there are many people who would hold the same opinion about you. If you don't like my opinions, as you suggested, dont read them! Seems like you are my bloody #1 fan!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
SD and others, you really need to know a lot about Islam. Why dont you go to the Islamic Information Center in Satwa or the Jumeirah Islamic Center and have a discussion. These places are run by Muslims who were Christians or Hindus before. They can give you a good understanding of Islam.
You said, "according to scholars shariah law was created after the quran was written, it is an interpretation of the prophet's message and guidance, but remains open to reform and revision." I wonder what kind of scholars you are referring to here. Sharia was being followed and implemented even while the Qur'an revelation was not completed. The sources of Sharia: the Quran and Prophet's Sunna. The penal law is not THE Sharia, it is part of it. Things like praying 5 times a day, performing Hajj, etc are all part of the Sharia.
"Open to reform and revision!" is a misleading statement. Reform and revision is done when "new" things or aspects are to be discussed, when these things were not there during the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). An example: stock markets, life insurance, etc. Things like adultery and their punishments were implemented while the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was alive and are not open to change.
Islam allows "Temporary" marriages you claim. No. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has forbidden it, and it is considered prostitution.
The problem with most Westerners like you is you take one single aspect of Islam, and think it is strange. Islam has to be considered as a complete system. All aspects go hand in hand. In a country like UAE where the Sharia is implemented only "partially", some aspects seem to fall "out of place".
And remember, no Mullah brainwashes us, because we ask for proofs from the Quran and Sunnah for all religious practices. Also, we take the Quran literally. IMHO, the brainwashing is dominant in other faiths like Christianilty and Judaism. How else, would Christians (except Mormons I guess), Hindus, and Jews believe polygamy to be illegal, whereas the religious texts do not forbid it. Why do Christians believe eating pork is allowed, whereas the Bible forbids it. Why do Christian women show off their head, when the Bible commands the head to be covered. I could go on and on.
And remember, just because some people thing some things are "barbaric", they dont become barbaric. In Islam, the standard is set by Allah, not by what people "think", because peoples thoughts vary from time to time and place to place. Hence we need to refer to a standard by which we know what is right or wrong. And standard is following the Quran and Sunna.
If only the man could afford to get his wife here, all of this wouldnt have taken place atall.
Oh dear. So in the so-called civilised world adultery is expected isn't it? I think I much prefer the Dubai way, thank you very much.
I have just come home to Australia after serving eight months out of a 12 month jail term in Fujairah Central Jail. I was only released early because the Sheik's son got married so he decided to give an early release to some prisoners who had served more than half of their sentences. I was drugged, gang raped and beaten and when I went to the hospital for medical treatment and the doctors told me I should report it to the police, I was hesitant at first because I thought I would be in trouble for consuming alcohol. Both the doctors and the CID (police) assured me that I would be fine as I am not Muslim and I consumed the drink at a licensed bar. Little did I know!
First I was released from hospital and was asked to come to court after a few days to testify. I did this and after I was in the court I realized I was being taken to jail. No-one would tell me what my charges were and I was not allowed to make any calls, not even to my embassy or lawyer. I was in jail for 1 month before I even knew what my charges were and when I found out, what shock!
I was charged with consensual sexual relations and consuming alcohol. During my trial ( which was in Arabic) I didn't even give a statement and my medical report was not seen. I spoke to my lawyer once with the assistance of a translator. After five months in jail I was sentenced to 1 year for both charges.
Apparently under Shariah law, if a woman reports rape and there is not 4 male Muslim witnesses of good character, then your case can not be proven. The statement of the woman is not relevant to them, they only listen to the men involved and if they deny it, it didn't happen!
During my eight months inside I spoke to numerous people with different cases. From what I have seen and heard they only still give the death penalty to people who commit murder or severe cases of abuse and incest. There was several woman who had committed adultery and their sentences were slightly longer if either involved was married. Muslim women also still receive lashes in addition to their jail terms, usually of 80-100 depending on the crime.
I saw many injustices during my time there and the treatment of certain nationalities was equivalent to how some treat animals. The level of hypocrisy is mind blowing!
Women who become pregnant to married local (Emirati) men go to jail to finish their pregnancies and then after the jail term, get deported with the baby while the men stay outside. Prostitutes are given visit visas when officials know full well what work they are coming there to do. The massage parlors in Fujairah are left to operate knowing full well they don't offer just massage. The prostitutes I was in jail with knew the majority of policemen, CID, prosecutors and judges as customers! But none of these people see a day in court! Locals with sexually related charges often go out after a few days in jail on guarantee, but this is not an options for most other nationalities and those who have "important" boyfriends or lovers go out within the day. The level of sexual discrimination is also absurd.
Although it appears that they have lightened up on the barbaric punishments, if the UAE wants to keep its image as a progressing Middle Eastern country then it clearly needs to eliminate the archaic views about women and severe punishments for acts which clearly they are not adverse to committing themselves, without punishment!
Anonymous@19.42 - I am extremely sorry to hear of your plight.
Is there any way you could contact me - secretdubai at gmail dot com - feel free to set up an anonymous account to protect your privacy/identity if you email me.
Also I am not sure if you speak French, but one woman who had a similar experience to yours has written a book: Amazon link here if you were looking for others who have shared your trauma.
Best of luck recovering from your ordeal and sorry you got the very worst of UAE "hospitality".
I hope that you forgot the [SARCASM] [/SARCASM] tags!
If you were being serious, I hope that you never indulge in infidelity, cause it might make you reconsider your opinion while being stoned to death.
Hey..Anonymous said...
Please.....there is no such thing as EXTREME shariah. This is the punishmen for adultery in Quran AND in the bible.
In the quran as I said I would be leniant on the Holy scripture it has been know as this:Chapter 24 of Islam's holy book, the Qur'an, explicitly instructs believers to whip those found guilty of adultery. A leading Muslim scholar, Maulana Muhammad Ali noted that "stoning to death was never contemplated by Islam as a punishment for adultery." Roman Catholic Archbishop of Lagos, Dr. Anthony Olubunmi Okogie, said that the "official text of the Qur'an only sanctions a punishment of so many lashes for such an offence not stoning to death...[the] punishment of stoning was introduced later by Omar, the second Calif for reasons best known to him." 6 Many Muslim scholars and judges agree that the Qur'an does not refer to executions by stoning. "...the Islamic legal scholar Tarik Abdul-Rahman states they are part of the Hadith (collections of sayings and acts of the Prophet), and go back to the Pentateuch (first five books of Hebrew Scripture)." 7 Execution by stoning is thus in harmony with the 613 laws which make up the Mosaic code in the Bible." So it is MAN who brings these things to surface who believes they are of God or ALLAH. If more women stood up fopr their rights and kicks some Butt things would turn. I believe this can change. ZI have much more info. But this should not be taken lighhtly/ I am an American I dated an Isrealite when I was 18. I wil;l be honest, he frightened me, even though I didnt show it. He was very domineering and forceful and a NO was not answer. Trust me on that. This crap aint no joke. I just wish we could help out as much as possible. If you could watch the movie The stoning of Soraya M you would change your mind. There is NO Justifiable action to take like this. They should all be shot.
Watch the movie of thwe stonaing of soraya m. MAYBE YOU WOULD UNDERTSTND THEN. iF YOUR A GUY YOULL STILL CRY OR GET mother_natures+purity@yahoo.com Billie jO
things from this source: the Book in which Allah has set out His law, and the authoritative interpretation and exemplification of the Book by the Prophet, blessings and peace be on him through word and deed, in his capacity as the reprThe medium through which we receive the law of Allah is known as Risalat. We have received two esentative of Allah. The Prophetneed to be ;locked up I would be afraid for your children. I agree with the after click310 said...
Taunted @ 10:29 from last part
Billier jo
My name is at the bottem
I thought awhile before commenting on this. I mean I am only one yet there are some serious facts to this issue at hand. I dont think this is a dang joke either. And for people that can look the other way, As leaving in the United States, "How Dare You." We fight against this. And I can only assume you would turn your head away from a child being beaten as well. Well to get to my point, The Islmaic Government and the Sharari are totally completely wrong in the eyes of Humans and God. I dont mean to throw religion in here but its going to have to be done. In their Government "Islamic in this matter:The sovereignty of this kingdom is vested only in Him. He alone has the right to command or forbid.
Life, in all its forms, our physical organs and faculties, the apparent control which we have over nearly everything in our lives and the things themselves, none of them has been created or acquired by us in our own right. They have been bestowed on us entirely by Allah. Hence, it is not for us to decide the aim and purpose of our existence or to set the limits of our authority; nor is anyone else entitled to make these decisions for us. This Islamic Government sharia Law of the Land?
http://www.islam101.com/politics/politicalsystem.htm
The sovereignty of this kingdom is vested only in Him. He alone has the right to command or forbid.
Life, in all its forms, our physical organs and faculties, the apparent control which we have over nearly everything in our lives and the things themselves, none of them has been created or acquired by us in our own right. They have been bestowed on us entirely by Allah. Hence, it is not for us to decide the aim and purpose of our existence or to set the limits of our authority; nor is anyone else entitled to make these decisions for us. This
are due to Him alone, no one and right rests only with Allah, who has created us, endowed us with mental and physical faculties, and provided material things for our use. Tawhid means that only Allah is the Creator, Sustainer and Master of the universe and of all that exists in it, organic or inorganic.
The sovereignty of this kingdom is vested only in Him. He alone has the right to command or forbid. Worship and obedience nothing else shares it in any way
This principle of the unity of Allah totally negates the concept of the legal and political independence of human beings, individually or collectively. No individual, family, class or race can set themselves above Allah. Allah alone is the Ruler and His commandments are the Law."
ME BELOW
In the opposite case Muhammed would have been similar to whom is worshipped as the all knowing Jesus.
Yet one must look at the whole as not in a dark solid tunnel and know that God knows when he put Jesus down here that he lived and breathed AND died for our sins. And HE EVEN HE did not forsake the sinners or condemn ANYONE for that matter to Death. By any means. If it was anyone it was God and Jesus who washed away our Sins. Yet there is anarchic tyranny of so called diligence and rightful way of Stoning Women to DEATH. Some were proclaimed innocent after thwe death, some were not and only high up officials knew about this.
In this form of Government there has to be another way to deal with this type of Punishment from the Punisher to whom IS NOT GOD. NOR is as Divine. And when it was initiated it was BEFORE Jesus. As well as ever mentioned it was of much older days then when Jesus was on earth and what was taught by Him.
Quoted
The medium through which we receive the law of Allah is known as Risalat. We have received two things from this source: the Book in which Allah has set out His law, and the authoritative interpretation and exemplification of the Book by the Prophet, blessings and peace be on him through word and deed, in his capacity as the representative of Allah. The Prophet, blessings and peace be on him, has also, in accordance with the intention of the Divine Book, given us a model for the Islamic way of life by himself implementing the law and providing necessary details where required. The combination of these two elements is called the Shari‘ah.
ME BELOW
Now consider Khilafat. According to the Arabic lexicon, it means ‘representation’. Man, according to Islam, is the representative of Allah on earth, His vicegerent. That is to say, by virtue of the powers delegated to him by Allah, he is required to exercise his Allah-given authority in this world within the limits prescribed by Allah
Now as this may say one MAYBE the representive of ALLAH here on earth, in which one is to exercise one’s Allah Given right, mind you it is within limits as prescribed by Allah.
One must NOT look at the old Testament and shove off like Jesus never excisited. As he has. And one must look at it clearly that way. God instructed Jesus to live a certain way as he did so. One must also look that Jesus taught all he could and tried to reach and instruct people and his followers that in this life there are things that we WILL NOT agree with. However, Love, Forgiveness, Hope and Faith were the key to all that we needed.
The most Holy man in the world Jesus Christ would not and could not Judge another.
NOR stone a man to death,God would have given him that right. As I read on some of these comments theres other things that were done that cause stoning and I agree with…
not agreeing with Taunted said...
I think the maid deserved more, 1 year and a 100 lash's, far too lenient!
Come on and get a life are you that sadistic yourself? If so you need to be ;locked up I would be afraid for your children. I agree with the after click310 said...
Taunted @ 10:29
refer to executions by stoning. "...the Islamic legal scholar Tarik Abdul-Rahman states they are part of the Hadith (collections of sayings and acts of the Prophet), and go back to the Pentateuch (first five books of Hebrew Scripture)." 7 Execution by stoning is thus in harmony with the 613 laws which make up the Mosaic code in the Bible." So it is MAN who brings these things to surface who believes they are of God or ALLAH. If more women stood up fopr their rights and kicks some Butt things would turn. of Islam's holy book, the Qur'an, explicitly instructs believers to whip those found guilty of adultery. A leading Muslim scholar, Maulana Muhammad Ali noted that "stoning to death was never contemplated by IslamRoman Catholic Archbishop of Lagos, Dr. Anthony Olubunmi Okogie, said that the "official text of the Qur'an aAND in the bible.
s a punishment for adultery." only sanctions a punishment of so many lashes for such an offence not stoning to death...[the] punishment of stoning was introduced later by Omar, the second Calif for reasons best known to him." 6 MaIn the quran as I said I would be leniant on the Holy scripture it has been know as this:Chapter 24 ny Muslim scholars and judges agree that the Qur'an does not
If you were being serious, I hope that you never indulge in infidelity, cause it might make you reconsider your opinion while being stoned to death.
Hey..Anonymous said...
this. I mean I am only one yet there are some serious facts
Please.....there is no such thing as EXTREME shariah. This is the punishmen for adultery in Quran s can change. ZI have much more info. But this should not be taken lighhtly/ I am an American I dated an Isrealite when I was 18. I wil;l be honest, he frightened me, even though I didnt show it. He was very domineering and forceful and a NO was not answer. Trust me on that. This crap aint no joke. I just wish we could help out as much as possible. If you could watch the movie The stoning of Soraya M you would change your mind. There is NO Justifiable action to take like this.
This
2nd part
ME BELOW
Now consider Khilafat. According to the Arabic lexicon, it means ‘representation’. Man, according to Islam, is the representative of Allah on earth, His vicegerent. That is to say, by virtue of the powers delegated to him by Allah, he is required to exercise his Allah-given authority in this world within the limits prescribed by Allah
Now as this may say one MAYBE the representive of ALLAH here on earth, in which one is to exercise one’s Allah Given right, mind you it is within limits as prescribed by Allah.
One must NOT look at the old Testament and shove off like Jesus never excisited. As he has. And one must look at it clearly that way. God instructed Jesus to live a certain way as he did so. One must also look that Jesus taught all he could and tried to reach and instruct people and his followers that in this life there are things that we WILL NOT agree with. However, Love, Forgiveness, Hope and Faith were the key to all that we needed.
The most Holy man in the world Jesus Christ would not and could not Judge another.
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