Stoning and lashing
Here reported by Gulf News we have one of the world's most screwed up families outside rural Utah. A fifty-something Pakistani patriarch married to an Indian widow who used her four half-Emirati daughters as his effective concubines, fathering ten children by them.
He's been sentenced to stoning, which has gone to appeal. (One rather hopes Amnesty will abandon its usual zeal on this one).
Whereas the four daughters got 80 lashes each. They claim their stepfather "used to threaten them with a knife, forcing them to surrender." The court however decided that they "allowed" their stepfather to sleep with them, hence the punishment.
Let's take a look at the facts, at least as reported by Gulf News. The daughters are currently aged between 21 and 26. The sexual relations date back to 1996. Even if Stepdaddy only started with the eldest back then, she was still no more than 15. Adult man with a knife versus young teen "allowing" him=80 lashes? That seems like an interesting verdict.
But of course it's not for us to comment on other people's culture and legal systems. We can always shut up, pack up and return to our corrupt Western countries if we don't like it here. Back to our vile lands of sin and debauchery, where child sex abuse victims receive counselling and support rather than a damn good whipping.
He's been sentenced to stoning, which has gone to appeal. (One rather hopes Amnesty will abandon its usual zeal on this one).
Whereas the four daughters got 80 lashes each. They claim their stepfather "used to threaten them with a knife, forcing them to surrender." The court however decided that they "allowed" their stepfather to sleep with them, hence the punishment.
Let's take a look at the facts, at least as reported by Gulf News. The daughters are currently aged between 21 and 26. The sexual relations date back to 1996. Even if Stepdaddy only started with the eldest back then, she was still no more than 15. Adult man with a knife versus young teen "allowing" him=80 lashes? That seems like an interesting verdict.
But of course it's not for us to comment on other people's culture and legal systems. We can always shut up, pack up and return to our corrupt Western countries if we don't like it here. Back to our vile lands of sin and debauchery, where child sex abuse victims receive counselling and support rather than a damn good whipping.
81 Comments:
... Y'know, I was going to try and say something, but I'm still speechless. Just... wrong, in every way something can be wrong.
Have you seen the piece in Toady today about censorship? Thanks to a campaigning investigation, a quality journalist has managed to ban Shakespeare. Phenomenol.
[...]But of course it's not for us to comment on other people's culture and legal systems. We can always shut up, pack up and return to our corrupt Western countries if we don't like it here. Back to our vile lands of sin and debauchery, where child sex abuse victims receive counselling and support rather than a damn good whipping.
SD as you pointed out its their culture, let them hawk it. We end up respecting it here. I guess its time they need to reciprocate every time one of them travels to our countries. But in reality we have won. Just look at the stuff they buy/wear/drive/music! Despite whining about the evils of other cultures and believing that they are superior, they are busy enjoying the corrupt ways of the west...
Absolutely shocking. I didn't realise that this kind of medieval barbarity was still meted out as justice in the UAE. Are there different levels of Sharia law in different Emirates?
They must have been watching all those morally corrupt western T.V shows.
Anonymous @ 09:15 said: But in reality we have won. Just look at the stuff they buy/wear/drive/music!
You are spot on there mate!! The policy is to thrash the West for everything and then shamelessly ape them in every way imaginable! Its hypocricy personified!! This is exactly why a "ban everything West" never works because they discuss it over of cup of coffee at Starbucks!!!
So who exactly are the "they" you people are referring to? The judge presiding in that court room for this particular case? The stepfather and his 'family'? Clearly, this is absurd and inhuman by the standards of any culture. So I won't spend too much time condemning, etc. But on a completely separate note, try to distinguish between UAE culture and beliefs, Asian culture and behaviour, and finally, those who are simply sick human beings regardless of where they come from. You can comment and criticise all you like. We all do. But such generalisations can be dangerous. And they're the reason why a woman in full hijab walking down a street in London attracts more attention today than a hot blonde chick in a mini skirt and a boob tube. And yes, we are strongly influenced by Western film, music, dress, etc. Big deal. At least if one of us moves to a European city, we don't tend to EXPECT everyone to speak our language or EXPECT them to cook our food or EXPECT them tolerate and accept any kind of atrocious, obnoxious behaviour.
My concern is this:
*One of them was eight months pregnant when they were arrested in 2005, according to police officials.*
And as the sentencing was already carried out on the girls, I just hope they weren't barbaric enough to lash her during her pregnancy...
Can't blame him.
He was only following the big mag.
;-)
-DD
***Sarcasm***
Its all because of the corrupting influence that western media has had on this man. After being blasted by scandalous images of indecently exposed women, how do you expect him to control his urges? at least he kept it in the family.
The west is to blame for all these pent up sexual frustration prevalent in this society!
and SD its not for you to comment on other people's culture and legal systems. Just shut up, pack up and return to your corrupt Western countries if you don't like it here. And when you are going , do you think you could take me with you? ;-)
*** sarcasm***
And as the sentencing was already carried out on the girls, I just hope they weren't barbaric enough to lash her during her pregnancy...
As far as I know they wait until after the birth. Likewise they don't execute pregnant women, they wait until after the birth and after the infant is weaned.
Anonymous @ 12:23
Who exactly is the "you people" you are referring to.
And your last point claiming that you people do not try to influence european culture etc is a load of crap.
It is because of YOU PEOPLE that Europe is going through problems. YOU PEOPLE have been enforcing your beliefs in other countries - finding offence with everything, trying to get stuff banned and finally killing people just because they do not have the same religion/view/colour/beliefs/underpants than you.
It was YOU PEOPLE who bombed London and then marched making open death threats to the people of Europe.
Do YOU see any of us doing that over here?
-DD
Can't blame him.
He was only following the Big MAN.
;-)
Anonymous @ 13:58
"You" in my post CLEARLY refers to the various commentators in this blog.
As for YOU, thanks for even more generalisations. It's exactly what we need.
DD (is that your chest size?)-
The last time I checked, it was YOU (meaning the white folks) who were bombing Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine.
Put a lid on your whining already! Why do you guys lose it so quickly? I would love to see you guys typing this puerile crap! I bet you guys are all emotional hitting on the keyboard and thinking "there you dirty terrorists... now who's your daddy?!" Lest you forget, whatever you are witnessing in the Middle East as uncontrollable violence is all a fall out of the colonial era. You clowns had to start shit in this part of the World by first destroying the Khilafah and then creating the bastard state of Israel in the MIDST of Muslims and Arabs! And for what? Because YOU were feeling guilty for what you idiots did in the 1st and 2nd World Wars! Now that you have started the fire, shut the hell up and enjoy the ride :)
And while you are at it, keep singing that song by Billy Joel, "We didn't start the fire..."
A good follow up to my previous post would be this site explaining Billy Joel's song "We didnt start the fire".
And while you are at it, keep singing that song by Billy Joel, "We didn't start the fire..."
Interestingly, I have an entire pastiche of that song that I wrote some time ago. I actually think it's my favourite thing I've ever written, however so far I haven't dared publish it.
Now I'm getting tempted.
Al Republican,
You people can talk. Your whole culture was born out of war (and you claim to be the religion of peace). Check your history you fool.
And besides I am not white.
Another point, since you guys think emulating your big guy's life is a good thing, why are you punishing this poor pakistani? Like your big guy, he had consent of the kid's parents.
-DD
p.s: Why was Afghanistan attacked - cos of the Taliban. Iraq - cos Bush is an ass. And Palestine cos they haven't figured out how to live in peace yet. And please stop blaming the Iraq mess on the Americans. The Iraqis got a chance to make a better life for themselves. Instead they start blowing each other up. Fer gads sake man, you people can't even get along among themselves. Wherever you look, your societies are among the most violent in the world. And stop hiding behind the colonialism argument. Get over it you twit. Look at all the people (of other cultures and religions) who were ruled and now have no problem going about their business like normal people and in peace. Thus achieving economic prosperity and slowly turning the tables on the west.
Al Republican,
I thought you were a morally superior person. I see you are thinking about my chest now.
tch tch tch. Must be the evil western T.V
-DD
A question to ask: Other than Oil (which wasn't even discovered or processed by them) what has this part of the world contributed to humanity? And no, a violent, hypocritical train of thought does not count.
DD,
I am so sorry that you have so much anger and bitterness inside you. And i am sure that your aggressive violent, tone is because you've been aggravated by the bad Arabs. You are just a victim.
Because one day some psychopath decided to hijack a plane and crash into a couple of towers, his entire race is now sentenced to a lifetime of judgment by the likes of YOU. Ok whatever - think what you will. But try watching something other than CNN some time. or even be a little more adventurous and read a couple of books.
The Palestinians haven't figured out how to live in peace? Are you for real?
This is exactly why this "myth" of a dialogue between east and west will remain a myth for all eternity. For some reason everyone's pointing fingers and taking these comments so personally. And if not that, it becomes a competition for who's the biggest smartass. what's the point? If we're not willing to respect each other as human beings, with differences, then let's just call it quits and bomb the entire planet. Oh wait - George is taking care of that already.
Over and out.
AL
Please.
Your 'muslims are always right and all our problems stem because someone else did it to us' is pathetic.
Its time WE muslims stand up and take responsibility for the shit amongst us. And this paki bastard who was screwing his own daughters just to get his rocks off is a prime example of the Shit Amongst Us.
Now i know what you will say - well stepsons/daughters are haram anyways and therefore everyone in Islam will live in Nirvana.
BS.
The fact is this guy screwed up. The fact is muslims are as dirty perverted and hypocritical as teh west. I can say this cuz i am a muslim.
We all can see Jerry Springer and easily say "ASTAGHFIRALLAH look at the HARAM Western Society!!!" but it takes more balls to see it happening in our own back yard. The only difference is their press reports it whereas ours cant.
AD
Anonymous/DD @ 15:16
A question to ask: Other than Oil (which wasn't even discovered or processed by them) what has this part of the world contributed to humanity?
Does the art of manually flying large metallic tubes in to structures count?
a sick man did a sick act and here we go again .. the western brigade is up again under the banner of malign/defame/bash Islam in every way possible.
btw, i see no difference in this sick person and a holy father who molest young children in his church some where in the (not so?) humane, civilized and technologically advanced west.
if you can link this incident with Islam and Muslims then am I not justified to blame western culture and values for holy father's act?
DD there is no love lost between you and me. I give a damn what you think about me. Morally Superior... give me a break! With the kinds of comments you contribute here, I dont think you can ever respect any Muslim soul.
Read your comments again and decide for yourself who is the one crying here. Your ignorance is manifest from the stupid statements you make like "...culture born out of war" and more absurd things like "...what has this part of the world contributed to humanity".
Making such ludicrous statements makes you probably feel real big and bright. But, these things have been debated here before. I guess you were busy being an ass. This region has intellectually and scientifically contributed much more to humanity than has the West since the Industrial Revolution. Just do yourself a favor and bloody put your idiosyncracies aside and READ. Wikipedia alone can teach you much in just 5 minutes of browsing. And for your kind non-white-ass information, I am not from this part of the World either. So I dont stand to gain anything by singing praises of Arabs.
I am really wasting my time with a nimrod like yourself...
SD, perhaps there is more to the story that meets the eye? However, if this is true, there exists room to implement better changes for a just & law abidding society.
There goes Al Republican again with his cut-and-paste comment that he keeps ready for times like this.
Nice link though Al R.
a sick man did a sick act and here we go again .. the western brigade is up again under the banner of malign/defame/bash Islam in every way possible.
btw, i see no difference in this sick person and a holy father who molest young children in his church some where in the (not so?) humane, civilized and technologically advanced west.
*MORON ALERT! MORON ALERT!*
The issue is not what he did - or what religion he was - you might notice I compared him with Mormonism (you can't get more western than that) the issue is how the daughters have been punished, when they are the victims in all of this.
The young children that the holy father molests get compensation/counselling/support. They don't get 80 lashes.
NOW do you get it?
You cannot deny though that the west is the one leading the sexual/animal instincts on the media.
It has a huge role provoking the people.
Not to say that this has a direct role in this incident but just wanted to point it out regarding the stupid posts above.
As for the girls no being able to report to the police. That doesnt sound right to me, they had whole five years and couldnt report?
Anyway in the sharia law a married guy get stoned and non married got slashed. There is no difference between males and females so let's not put ur usual western conspiracy against islam in discrimination.
Can someone else take the above moron on? Someone with experience in communicating with the brainwashed/braindead?
Muchas gracias.
My Muslim friends: don’t waste your time trying to convince them that we are not bad!
My Non-Muslim friends: don’t waste your time trying to convince us that we are bad!
Regarding the 80 lashes for the girls, neither me nor anyone but the judge can decide if they deserve this punishment or not. This is his job! If it was the right sentence, good. If it was a wrong one, we believe that God will punish him for his wrong judgment. It’s not possible to read a newspaper article and put ourselves as another judge to say what is right and what is wrong.
Please, save your well known warm feelings to something else!
P.S. One of the very few times that I liked what secretdubai wrote. No... not all; only the last paragraph of her post. What is sarcasm for some is sooo true for others!
al-republican:
last time -i- checked, muslims in afghanistan, palestine, iraq, etc were killing each other cos they got no one else to turn on, plus they're all sexually deprived.. what do u expect?
oh and lets we not forget iran, who wants a penis exten^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D nuclear weapons...!
Er...which one?
Ouch, when I read the post I couldnt decide whether to feel sad or sick. And then I read the comments. Nobody seems to care abt the poor girls, instead everyone has gotten into arguments abt ehtnic/ religious superiority!
Having said that I'm pretty sure this was not how the religious law was meant to be interpreted. Like all religions the world over, it doesnt just take great men to write religious texts, it also takes great men to interpret & execute them correctly.
It is a sad fact, but if Arab and Islamic civilization had ceased to exist three hundred years ago, the world would not want for a single modern invention or discovery (with the possible exception of the Azan alarm clock; even with "martrydom operations" the Japanese and the Sri Lankans got there first). All this is even sadder when one considers that for hundreds of years in the Middle Ages Arabic was the major language of learning in subjects as diverse as philosophy, mathematics, the physical sciences and medicine. Increasingly, Arabic today is being relegated to purely religious discourse, and flowery, largely empty rhetorical flourishes. Meanwhile, Arabic language academies are fighting a losing battle to coin sufficient, usable neologisms to maintain Arabic's status as a language of learning, and modern Arab authors, who until recently were at the forefront of postcolonial writing cringe under the shadow of the cut-throat's blade. Unfortunately, none of this is new. The great Arabic-speaking (although not all ethnically Arab) polymaths of the Middle Ages had to struggle against the fundamentalists of their day: Ibn Sina was anathematised by Al Ghazali; Ibn Rushd was forced out of Al Andalus into exile and then poisoned. So this may have been "Arab" science, but was it ever "Islamic". Lastly, the great historical role of the Arabs lay in transmitting and preserving the learning of other (e.g. the Greeks, who provided the basis of Medieval Arab science, philosophy and medicine, and the Indians, who invented "Arabic" numerals and the zero), rather than in originality. For the information of ignoramuses like "Al Republican", I am that rare creature, a Westerner who is fluent and literate in Arabic, but who wouldn't dream of adopting Islam!
Last anon 00:34...please dont give more ammunition to the bigotted fu*kwits who reply here on SD's blog with stupid statements like
As for the girls no being able to report to the police. That doesnt sound right to me, they had whole five years and couldnt report?
To everyone else, when did this case become about race and the media? Dont you guys get bored with yourselfs yet?
By the way, those girls need professinal counselling now, the mother needs those 80 lashes and that father should be executed.
And I am 100% serious about that.
Jassim
As for the girls no being able to report to the police. That doesnt sound right to me, they had whole five years and couldnt report?
What does not sound right to ME, is for people who have zero knowledge about abuse/incest etc making idle comments. If it does not sound right to you, then why, OH WHY, do most cases of sexual abuse within the home go unreported until many years later? If most were reported immediately then less of it would happen.
Ask any grown up victim why they did not do something sooner.
They could have followed the example of a few women around the world and used a kitchen knife to cut 'his big man' off. Google it.....it happens!
Inbreeding in sandland? OH NOES!
On a serious note I agree with Jassim above (hopefully the first and the last time)
The mother should be jailed and the father neutered.
I agree with you CG...
I was 13 years old when it happened...and now, over 10 years later i am finally able to talk about it. But even now my immediate family still doesn't know...
You have no idea how terrifying an experience it is, especially when it involves a family member and in their case it was their father...albeit a stepdad. And if their mom knew, and she kept her mouth shut for whatever reason, that would have been another reason why the girls couldn't muster up the courage to speak out.
It's called FEAR. A mind-numbing, helpless FEAR that turns you into a frozen ball of terror.
It's not annoying but sad that people stand there and justify, reason or point fingers without taking into consideration the circumstances and the background.
The girls aged between 21 and 26 told the judge their stepfather used to threaten them with a knife, forcing them to surrender.
The stepfather admitted his guilt at all stages of the court process. And he told the court that he is the father of some of the children but the others are not his.
The sisters' mother is from India and was accused of aiding and abetting the stepfather. She was married to an Emirati but after his death 12 years ago married the Pakistani.
if the above account is true then its pretty clear that both step father and mother are guilty of the crime. Both of them should be given severe punishment whatever is required according to the law.
The girls should have been spared.
AD-
I agree with your statements 100%. I also trust the judge's decision as he is the man in charge and most definitely qualified.
He made the call to punish the girls and the man. I back his decision and trust that he wouldn't have just lashed those girls to stir up Western emotions. He must have acted on the evidences that were produced.
This is why I am proud to be Muslim, AD. That Pakistani guy did a SICK act and he is getting what he deserves - death. I think this case is also pending with the Supreme Federal Shariat court? If they decide to uphold the judges decisions then you can bet your bottom dollar that the judgements passed were correct based on the evidences provided.
Also, AD, that is why I asked you to read that lengthy article by Mufti Taqi Uthmani on the Hudood Ordinance. The punishment of lashes and death come under HADD (as per Sharee'ah). And as was pointed out in that article by Mufti saheb, the HADD punishements CANNOT be enforced unless there is INCONTROVERTIBLE, UNEQUIVOCAL proof of the crime.
If the matter is doubtful (as SD claims to be saying on some information she is privy to and the judge wasnt), then the punishments under HADD cannot be implemented. In that case a lighter punishment, known as Ta'zeer is given.
Let's meet up during the weekend!
The young children that the holy father molests get compensation/counselling/support.
They don't get 80 lashes.
NOW do you get it?
SD,
As Hatem said it's upto the JUDGE to decide who's guilty and what punishment is to be given to the culprits and not by a self proclaimed moralist like you.
IMO, if the girls knew what they were doing and didn't stop their step father or atleast didn't tell their mother about it then they must be punished for their part but if they were really innocent during the whole affair and were forced and threatened by their step father then I think it was very harsh decision.
As Hatem said it's upto the JUDGE to decide who's guilty and what punishment is to be given to the culprits and not by a self proclaimed moralist like you.
You're still not getting it. A western judge would never be able to order a rape victim to be punished.
That's why our system is superior to and more humane than yours.
You're still not getting it. A western judge would never be able to order a rape victim to be punished.
and how do you know for sure that she was a rape victim?
were you there in the court room? did you hear this from the girls? or were you there with her step father while he was raping his step daughters?
may be the girls have their part in the crime... the article doesn't say much on that apsect.
so before you teach us your superior and more humane system let's search for the truth first.
and how do you know for sure that she was a rape victim?
Because in my enlightened western country, sex with an underage girl is statutory rape.
Because in my enlightened western country, sex with an underage girl is statutory rape.
there is a big difference between sex/rape and having an illicit relationship with your step father for many years and giving birth to more than 10 children.
i'm sure the girls must had a part in this crime otherwise they wouldn't have been punished.
btw the punishment to girls is more symbolic than a real one as some one above has already tried to clarify about lashing sentence.
*sigh*
all this blog seems to do is attack people.
certain what "community" is all about!
obviously we are on the right track.
Ok, I'm going to turn this argument on its head.
An american woman reports a rape, and is jailed. here is the link provided by CNN. A free and independent Western news organisation. Hope the link is copied in full.
Ok guys, fight back. Bwahahaha
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/30/jailed.rapevictim.ap/index.html
I cannot see if the above link I pasted , was pasted correctly. As it takes time for my commnets to appear due to comment moderation.
Say e.g the link didnt work, then simply go to cnn.com . Click on law, and you will see the article.
I mean I cannot believe westerners could do such a thing. What barbarisms. The poor girl was handcuffed, and to boot one of the staff refused to give her a birth control pill cause it was against her religion. oh my God, I cannot believe westerners. How dare they, oh westerners how dare you. Good for nothin, aha, good for nothin.
Also in the british news, only 5% of rapes result in conviction. oh westerners, oh westerners. I want to cry now.
i have to stop, I cant type no more, i am shaking and crying. Oh my god, handcuffing rape victims. Oh westerners.
rummyjohn: drop me an email and I'll send you the lyrics. Put your unpublished comment (or a synopsis in) so I'll know it's you. I'm [my username here] at gmail.
Btw I'm happy to publish that comment if you like. You're right, I was having a bit of an angry moment when I wrote it ;)
An american woman reports a rape, and is jailed.
Yes - it was appallingly handled. However she wasn't jailed because of the rape. It's not the same situation.
I also note the American case has led to an official apology and new procedures for future such cases. I don't see any enquiry, apology or even questions raised over the appropriateness of whipping four child abuse victims.
Ok, it didnt paste correctly. I dont know hot to paste links. So I will paste the link in two parts.
"www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/30/jailed.rapevictim."
The other part is below. Just copy them as they appear with no spaces. SD you seem to know how to create html links, so feel free to do it here.
"ap/index.html"
Hey SD,
None are so blind as those who will not see.
Now apply it to the idiot anonymous commenter and just IGNORE HIM! he is seriously not making much sense and no use wasting your time with such frivolous debate
Secret Dubai claims:
That's why our system is superior to and more humane than yours.
Come on now!
If you are talking about the judicial system, I MAY agree with you to an extent, because you know.. a healthy judicial system is a reflection of a civil developed society (i.e. a state), and we are in the Arab world at large still struggling with that bit, politically and culturally...
If you are on the other hand trying to say that your moral values are superior to ours(?) then I am really, really disappointed with you!
If you are talking about the judicial system
Yes - to clarify - the judicial system, and specifically how it deals with crime victims, and specifically how it deals with the victims of sexual crime.
Western rape conviction rates may be atrociously low, but at least there is no chance an alleged victim would ever be punished for the act of having had sexual relations. (Yes there have been "cry wolf" cases where alleged victims have later been convicted of perjury etc, but this is not the same thing). There would never be any chance in today's UK courts that someone alleging a rape would be hauled over the coals for "adultery".
SD-
The assumptions in your argument are that the girls were: (1) raped; (2) under-aged. If both of these points of yours are correct, then needless to say the judge's verdict is wrong.
But, let's look at the facts objectively, shall we? The ages of the 4 girls at present is between 21-26. The case was reported officially launched in 2005 (which means this act was STILL going on) when they were arrested in Ajman. Keeping these facts in mind, the matter of the girls being underage does not arise. Clearly, even the youngest of the 4 would have been 19 in 2005.
Secondly, HOW did the news of this family come out in the open? With the little hints this article gives, it seems it was most probably people in the area who reported the incest in this family. The family moving from Al Ain to Ajman indicates quite clearly that there may have been complaints from people who knew them. Moreover, the children born out of this abhorable act were given away, which further proves that people could smell that something was definitely wrong.
It is in this hidden fact that the punishment of the girls becomes more clear. The people in the community would have given (and it seems some people from Ajman did bear witness) that these girls were willingly in this haram relationship.
Lastly, I would beg to differ on the superiority of your system. While Islamic Laws are no longer in effect in any country in the world (even here they are not implemented properly and leave a lot to be desired), the Western system is not flawless when it comes to rape and other things. Any girl that willingly has sex with a male can later charge for rape. American law, at least, isn't good enough to decipher correctly between a claim and a fact. If you are judging systems based on which system protects the female more then I guess your system really is superior. But, in a true judicial system, the law should not make such distinctions and both parties should have a chance to prove their case.
I had an American friend in the US who was unfairly put to jail and consequently kicked out of University for "raping" a girl he knew for 6 months. Apparantly, they were at the bar that night and were both drunk. They came back home, made out, and went all the way to 3rd base. Next morning, he got the shock of his life when this girl pressed charges against him for rape.
The girl later on dropped the charges and the matter was dissolved, but this guy had to go through a lot of crap and had the girl not dropped charges he was quite literally screwed! So as you can see, this is not about Islamic or Western laws. Such cases bring their complexities and give even the best of systems a run for their money.
Yes, the punishments in Islam known as "Hadd" are very harsh. In some cases EXTREMELY harsh. But, the severity of the crime brings such severe consequences and to get awarded these penalties shows how precarious the position of the defendant is. Anyone who studies Hudood laws will tell you that awarding the hadd punishment is very, very hard.
How did the Middle East become Muslim anyway? By the invading Arabs who raped and destroyed everyne who resisted them. Many countries in the Middle East are not Arabs but Muslim. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine...etc ere not of Arab Semite race. But Israelis are the SAME race as Arabs.
I guess the semi lucky one was Iran to manage keeping its language and culture alive after the Islamic invasion 1400 years ago.
I say a dawn hanging in a public square is in order for the stepfather.
Dispatch him swiftly to God, let Him deal with the scum He Created.
At Anon 03 Feb 05:55
"Many countries in the Middle East are not Arabs but Muslim. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine...etc ere not of Arab Semite race. But Israelis are the SAME race as Arabs."
Ha ha ha ha......(wild hysterical laughter)
That's the funniest hysterical BS I've heard in a while!
What these girls went through is simply appalling. I think there are MANY guilty here, including family that knew what was going on but did not report it, But I certainly don't think that the girls have any guilt whatsoever, it's saddening really that they've been put through this.
However Secrets, you don't miss an opportunity to get on your high camel don't you? Many kids in Western countries get counseling rather than punishment? This is not the typical scenario at all. Wow. You surely know the statistics of rape victims in the US - the majority don't report sex crimes because a trial can often time be more damaging to the victim than to the criminal. You live in lalala land for sure.
So when are you going to finally return to your wonderful land of virtues?
rummyjohn-
Agreed cent per cent. Let me clarify three things I tried to say, albeit not too clearly:
1- I back the decision of the judge trusting his credentials and of the system. What you (and others) are saying about the girls being underage and being abused holds a lot of water. However, the judge has acted on evidences that are not known to us. I would say if those things were shared with us, perhaps you might accept his decision?
2- My story was just to point out the fact that cases bring complications with them. Many tend to exploit loopholes in the system (or even create loopholes when there arent any!). Even if a system is that of Divine Law, the fact is that it is implemented by erring human beings (and exploited by even smarter/mischievous ones). Therefore mistakes can be made and Only Allah Alone is Flawless in His Judgement (and hence the relevance in the belief of the final day of Reckoning).
3- Any act after drinking is liable to get you in trouble - be it sex or driving! :P The Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wassallam) used to refer to alcohol as "Umm Al-Khabais" (mother of all evil things)!
You surely know the statistics of rape victims in the US - the majority don't report sex crimes because a trial can often time be more damaging to the victim than to the criminal.
It's not the same thing at all. Yes - part of the tragedy of abuse is that the victims have to have a lot of courage during the court proceedings. And it may be far more traumatic for them than the defendant. But there is awareness of this and authorities are trying to improve the situation. For example by allowing children to give testimony by video.
But there is still no chance that the victims would ever actually be literally punished by the legal system. Their experience may be termed "punishing" as in traumatic/difficult but it is not a punishment in the sense of a legal verdict.
Child abuse victims in the US and the UK would never be lashed or jailed or fined for having been raped and failing to report it.
“But there is still no chance that the victims would ever actually be literally punished by the legal system.”
In countries, other than Islamic-ruled ones, fornication is not a crime by any law. It’s just a personal choice, if both of them agree.
On the other hand, this personal choice in Islamic countries is a crime. We have no objection by the way.
So, The girls are punished because it appeared to the judge that it was not a child abuse case, but it’s the personal choice we are talking about.
If it’s rape, the victim is innocent. So many rape cases can be recalled if you searched in the archive of Gulfnews for example.
You are defending the girls all the way without knowing if it was their own choice or they were victims. You’ve just assumed that they are victims (and still children) and considered anyone opposing you a “moron” who still didn’t get it!
As usual…
Al-Republican. Its YOU who's jumping to conclusions. None of the statements that you have posted below are anything remotely factuous. You're permitted to jump to conclusions about what people could have/would have/may have done..?
"The assumptions in your argument are that the girls were: (1) raped; (2) under-aged. If both of these points of yours are correct, then needless to say the judge's verdict is wrong.
But, let's look at the facts objectively, shall we? The ages of the 4 girls at present is between 21-26. The case was reported officially launched in 2005 (which means this act was STILL going on) when they were arrested in Ajman. Keeping these facts in mind, the matter of the girls being underage does not arise. Clearly, even the youngest of the 4 would have been 19 in 2005.
Secondly, HOW did the news of this family come out in the open? With the little hints this article gives, it seems it was most probably people in the area who reported the incest in this family. The family moving from Al Ain to Ajman indicates quite clearly that there may have been complaints from people who knew them. Moreover, the children born out of this abhorable act were given away, which further proves that people could smell that something was definitely wrong.
It is in this hidden fact that the punishment of the girls becomes more clear. The people in the community would have given (and it seems some people from Ajman did bear witness) that these girls were willingly in this haram relationship.
Lastly, I would beg to differ on the superiority of your system. While Islamic Laws are no longer in effect in any country in the world (even here they are not implemented properly and leave a lot to be desired), the Western system is not flawless when it comes to rape and other things. Any girl that willingly has sex with a male can later charge for rape. American law, at least, isn't good enough to decipher correctly between a claim and a fact. If you are judging systems based on which system protects the female more then I guess your system really is superior. But, in a true judicial system, the law should not make such distinctions and both parties should have a chance to prove their case.
I had an American friend in the US who was unfairly put to jail and consequently kicked out of University for "raping" a girl he knew for 6 months. Apparantly, they were at the bar that night and were both drunk. They came back home, made out, and went all the way to 3rd base. Next morning, he got the shock of his life when this girl pressed charges against him for rape.
The girl later on dropped the charges and the matter was dissolved, but this guy had to go through a lot of crap and had the girl not dropped charges he was quite literally screwed! So as you can see, this is not about Islamic or Western laws. Such cases bring their complexities and give even the best of systems a run for their money.
Yes, the punishments in Islam known as "Hadd" are very harsh. In some cases EXTREMELY harsh. But, the severity of the crime brings such severe consequences and to get awarded these penalties shows how precarious the position of the defendant is. Anyone who studies Hudood laws will tell you that awarding the hadd punishment is very, very hard."
--------- SECONDLY------------------
YOU yourself state that:
"Even if a system is that of Divine Law, the fact is that it is implemented by erring human beings (and exploited by even smarter/mischievous ones). Therefore mistakes can be made and Only Allah Alone is Flawless in His Judgement (and hence the relevance in the belief of the final day of Reckoning)."
So you agree that your law system MAY be flawed..? If so how can anyone mete out a punishment if a system of law even MAY be flawed...? What if the judge was a misogynistic old codger who is wrong in his decision..? You'd still blindly follow his decision and the way of life that he dictates..? Oh damn, I forgot, I'm in the middle east, you've been doing that for the past 1400 years..
oh Al Republican, one last thing..
If you think that
"Therefore mistakes can be made and Only Allah Alone is Flawless in His Judgement (and hence the relevance in the belief of the final day of Reckoning)."
1) What if you believe the above and there is no God/day of Judgement..? Does that mean that a judge just lashed abuse victims and got away with it..?
2) If I sign some cheques and default on it, can I have the "I'll pay for this on the day of judgement" clause..? Cuz jails in this part of the world have some lonely inmates that I'd rather not be "friends" with.
-----------------------------
After reading your comment
"However, the judge has acted on evidences that are not known to us. I would say if those things were shared with us, perhaps you might accept his decision?"
Its nice that you think that there may be some "hidden evidence" that the judge used to come to this decision. (Why this doesnt come out into the open is another question I have, why is he protecting the father or someone else by failing to disclose some aspects of this investigation..?)
I however like to rely on my 31 years experience of living in this country to know that this is just another stupid judgement call on the part of the judge with respect to the daughters. Typical middle eastern silliness.
Secret Dubai claims:
That's why our system is superior to and more humane than yours.
Come on now!
If you are talking about the judicial system, I MAY agree with you to an extent, because you know.. a healthy judicial system is a reflection of a civil developed society (i.e. a state), and we are in the Arab world at large still struggling with that bit, politically and culturally...
If you are on the other hand trying to say that your moral values are superior to ours(?) then I am really, really disappointed with you!
The way I understood SD's tone was: "Oh God, if you're not going to understand reasoned debate, let me give it you in language that you will understand, stupid git." I don't think there's any reason to be disappointed with her, Dubai Jazz.
Anon 03 Feb, 2007 21:23 , reveals:
"The way I understood SD's tone was: "Oh God, if you're not going to understand reasoned debate, let me give it you in language that you will understand, stupid git." I don't think there's any reason to be disappointed with her, Dubai Jazz."
Oh yeah?
What you have failed to understand due to the short coming of your puny mind is the differentiation I was trying to make between a judicial system of a certain state and the moral values of the people it represent.
For me to understand where do you come from and what's your background (which is necessary in this debate) the least you could do is to disclose your identity, but I reckon there is nothing to be proud about who you are, hence the anonymity blanket.
And hey Secret Dubai, please feel free to call me stupid git whenever you think I am being one, at least you would spare us the pathetic comments of this Anon.
Promise?
What happened to those 10 kids that came into this world thru the actions of this motley lot? or has everyone forgotten them and shipped them off to some orphanages? I think that is the most important issue here. The real victims are those poor kids who now have no parents. And i think instead of debating the superiority or inferiorty of a race,legal syatem or moral values maybe we should spare a kind thought for those kids.
The ignorance of some of you people never seizes to amaze me.
Packing up your stuff isn't necessary, i would suggest other means to tackle the problem.
You, as westerners, can take matters into your hand and decide, as the world supreme judges, that the eradication of the people and the colonizing of the land would bring justice to this part of the world and would stop such "wrong" decisions to occur anymore.
But wait, didn't you do that in the america's?
Oh right, that wasn't your peoples decision, that was the spaniards and an order from her majesty.
Well, you can always send your prisoners and corrupt people to our country and let them do the dirty job.
Then again, that happened in australia and the aboriginals are just as extinct as the native americans.
However its not your fault, it was only a select convited prisoners that carried out their own bidding.
A more realistic method would be sending masses of your most intellectual people to slowly correct the corrupted systems and take over the law and enforcing rightousness amongst the people.
But i guess that happened in palestine and created the conflict of the mellinium.
However it is again not your fault, it was the jews who made you do it.
There is always world domination, but that was hitlers idea, and by no means you want to do that right? And he was a natzi, not a westerner.
If none of those work, you can raise the issue to the security council and neglet their decisions. Raise sanctions and plan an all out war on the country. I suggest you take the judge prisoner and practice Abu-Ghraib prison tactics to let him repent his wrongfull decision.
But that happened in Iraq and triple the amount of children died than born in the same year.
But the war in Iraq is also based on justified evidence, however Iraq decided to melt the weapons of mass distruction and create suicidal bombs when they are occupied instead.
That again is not a flaw in the system, the western systems and methods of action are very righteous just like the crusades.
On another note, a brit in Romania was found picking up homeless kids and having them practice indecent acts and selling the videos on the internet. But that was only one crazy brit, and we do have crazy people in the world. However, when it comes to the middle east, its a different story, because we should know better.
I guess the ban of schools in the 20's-50's in the trucial states (the Emirates) has a negative impact on us people.
But that wasn't your fault as well, it was an order from her majesty.
If you find none of these working, then i have no suggestion other than for you to pack your stuff and go back to your respective righteous countries where no such inhumane acts are carried out.
You can sit back and enjoy the third world crumble in the news, Its a heck of a show, since the producers and directors are all academy nominated westerners.
If they where of any other race, it would be dull since they don't have big guns, they just throw rocks at each other.
Proud Imarati you are great! Finally someone who reads and has a memory. But then good folks are supposed to watch only mainstream media and remember headlines/issues for a week. Keep it up!
Anonymous @ 3 February, 2007 20:29
Ummm... What the heck are you going on about?? What you are saying makes absolutely NO SENSE! Furthermore, you don't even understand the arguments I make... sigh. And you are supposed to be AT LEAST 31 years old!
What a waste of 31 years of life!
Oh yeah?
What you have failed to understand due to the short coming of your puny mind is the differentiation I was trying to make between a judicial system of a certain state and the moral values of the people it represent.
Umm, Dubai Jazz, you've flown off the handle and not even understood the point I was making. I spoke in reference to your line about being disappointed in SD.
Why would you want to insult me just because I thought to claridy something? Have you misunderstood me completely? The "stupid git" line was what I was suggesting SD was thinking about the commentors who say that the girls must have done something to be punished.
>For me to understand where do you >come from and what's your >background (which is necessary in >this debate)
I wasn't debating. I was attempting to clarify something I (perhaps wrongly) thought you were misunderstanding. Debating, Dubai Jazz, isn't what you are doing either. "Shortcomings of a puny mind" is hardly reasoned argument (and note that shortcomings is one word).
>the least you could do is to >disclose your identity, but I >reckon there is nothing to be >proud about who you are, hence the >anonymity blanket.
And the moniker Dubai Jazz is not an anoymity blanket? I'm sure there isn't just one Syrian national on blogger, so I'm sure I could read your blog and try and peice together an identity, but don't flatter yourself that you have a moral highground to stand on, because I don't choose to put my name here - mainly because I don't think it's relevant to the point I was making.
Whenever people on blogs curse Anon's it's really funny, because I could name myself MickeyMouse_123 or Pizza_Lover and suddenly I'm not an anon!
>And hey Secret Dubai, please feel >free to call me stupid git
And again, this just shows you misunderstood what I was saying. This is why you shouldn't be so ready to call other people stupid - you just end up looking even more stupid when you make a mistake.
I'd love to debate - once you've understood that insults have no place in debates. Best wishes to you.
And now I've gone against my own advice and given you spelling advice, and made typos in my own comment. My apologies Dubai Jazz - I didn't practice what I preached.
I do hope you'll look past "claridy" etc and see the point I'm making though.
I suppose it could easily have been worse. The judge could have had the daughters stoned to death as well.
Perhaps someone from Dubai could comment on whether this was an unusually lenient (or perhaps unusually harsh) sentence for Dubai.
For all I know, maybe this was the most lenient sentence the Judge could give, deeply wrong as it is.
Yep, this is the right place for me.... I couldn't read the whole think as it's too long,
but the half at least.
In my opinion all of them should be stoned to death. The mother of the girls is the real evil as allowed all to happen.
And no one should be surprised regarding the age. Here some men still marry legally 12 years old brides, as long as they have the money to pay the dowry.
Cut that fools balls off and feed it to him... sometimes there's a need for cruel and unusual punishment.
Ouch, when I read the post I couldnt decide whether to feel sad or sick. And then I read the comments. Nobody seems to care abt the poor girls, instead everyone has gotten into arguments abt ehtnic/ religious superiority! Quoted for truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MYFkEYyPts&mode=related&search=
Oh my my my. Goes to show how DEEPSEATED the hostility and mistrust run!!!!! Proud imarati, I must say on a universal level you are quite correct. I'm not sure if there is a moral superior position here. In fact, everywhere in the world it's same shit different day. It's an illusions people! Wake up. We are essentially all quite evil. As Bernard Shaw said: "The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing at all". Stop the blame game EVERYONE. Arab, western, whatever. Remember: Same shit different day. Banning a girl from wearing a sheilah/headscarf is just as moronic as "allowing" or actually TAXING women who sell themselves on the street!!! Yet the west does all of this. On the other hand in Dubai you can still get criminally convicted for being alone with a non relative of the opposite sex although PROSTITUTION and slavery/ie labourers is rampant!!! It's an ugly little thing called HYPOCRISY and no, nobody is excempt from this ugly trait. In other words: We are all guilty. I rest my case.
SD, whew, do you get tired reading through that many comments? :)
I linked this story to my blog, and would appreciate another post with details about this story, if they ever emerge.
what fucking bullshit!first of all how can any thinking human being come to the conclusion that its the girls fault when the perverted bastard has raped and abused them?who in their right mind thinks that a fifteen year old enjoys being raped and that by her 50-yr old step father.that asshole deserves to be cut up and thrown to the vultures!
Thanks for the nice post!
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